[wdewind]

> When I asked why, I was told "this worked because you were naive enough to think that this would work". I've been here four years now, and it's still the most important email I've ever sent. Maybe luck, maybe naivety, but I'm thrilled it's worked out.

When I was half way through college I decided I no longer wanted to be in school. I emailed a bunch of startups saying essentially "Your company sounds cool. I'll come work for you for the summer for free as long as we set up some kind of goal system where I can get a job offer at the end of the summer." I ended up getting two offers from that and never looked back. I didn't end up lasting 4 years there like you, but I am definitely glad I did it.

Ironically enough, now that I'm somewhat into my career I can't see myself doing something like that again, which is too bad. I've picked up some risk aversion along the way :(

[dasil003]

I think it works a lot better when you're 20 because people hire you based on potential. But when you're 30 hiring managers want to see skills. I suppose it could still work if you're changing careers, but you would need to demonstrate an even higher level of hunger and dedication.

[wdewind]

I don't know if that's true. This strategy certainly isn't going to land you a job at Google/FB/etc. but I'd be happy to chat with someone in their 30s who'd just gone through a bootcamp kind of thing and was offering a similar deal as someone who is currently hiring at a startup and we had a position for a junior/recent college grad.

To me the biggest snafu is that it's a lot easier to do the whole "I'll work for free" thing when you're 20 and have no responsibilities.

I'll also add, though, that there was a huge faith component in myself and in the startup industry that "things would just work out," and I was also miserable in school at the time, so alternatives were bleak. Having worked in the industry I've now been given a dose of reality, but having that kind of dumb faith allowed me to grow very quickly (though painfully, too), and I'm wondering how much that learned risk aversion is hurting my personal growth. That's my big takeaway from this, at least.

[cscharenberg]

At most companies if you changed careers near 30, you will never get a chance to talk with someone and show your potential. The HR filters are so tight that unless you know someone on the inside of a company who can pull strings, you'll never get asked in for an interview.

I'm watching my wife - a lawyer with math degree and programming experience - struggle to even get responses for junior QA positions.

I think the job market will have to get much tighter before companies start hiring people retraining into software. Hiring processes are optimized for new college grads and people with industry experience. Retraining programs are going to fall on their faces if we can't reform HR to hire smart, motivated people that lack a laundry list of qualifications.

[busterarm]

> Apply to startups. I don't know what else to tell you. I'm seeing TONS of people (for better or worse) get placed in jobs after completing coding bootcamps. Some of them have >90% placement rates.

@wdewind: I'm over 30, went to a bootcamp and changed careers (from something else in tech). It's still hard to get a good position in this situation. Yes, tons of people who get out of bootcamps get jobs but 90%+ of bootcamp grads are essentially new grads with little work experience. I was one of two people over 30.

Ultimately, demonstrable programming skill seems to factor in very little for junior positions. Maybe in general. Growing startups actually had the lowest response rate for any of us with actual work experience. Most of my interviews ended up being either large companies or early-stage startups that wanted to pay _waaaaaaay_ under-market and worthless equity (NY).

[wdewind]

Yes, you're not going to get paid market rate as a junior developer coming from a bootcamp. Hell, most startups aren't paying senior level people market rate when compared to G/FB etc.

My first job was hugely under market rate. I was up to market rate in about 3 years. But I had to change jobs 3 times to do it. It's not easy, definitely not saying that. But it's doable.

> Ultimately, demonstrable programming skill seems to factor in very little for junior positions.

This has not been my experience.

[eric-hu]

I've been having many discussions about this with another engineer friend. Is it really fair to call Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and Amazon salaries "market rate". My impression is that they're generally in the top 10% of pay, if not higher.

I think maximizing your compensation is great and everyone should spend some time on it. I just think having expectations of Google pay from a startup is a guaranteed recipe for disappointment. Read: I've heard of zero startups that offer that level of pay.

[busterarm]

I came out as a solid mid-level fullstack dev, but mainly due to my experience and side-projects.

Tons of folks in my bootcamp went to the right schools though and got 100k+ jobs even though they were mediocre to average (for a junior) devs.

[cscharenberg]

This reflects the people I know who have done bootcamps or just tried to build a portfolio and change careers. They struggled to get interviews, let alone jobs. A bootcamp instructor friend quit after losing faith in the program's efficacy after watching several graduating classes fail to get jobs.

My wife would take an unpaid internship for a few months if it led to a job, or work at very low pay, just to get into the industry.

Getting that first job changing careers is _hard_, but then you have experience to point at forevermore.

-- Anyway, I've gotten really intrigued by the hiring side of retraining people. I'm wondering if anyone has yet done research on the ability of retrainees to actually land jobs via social networking, which is how it's assumed they will get jobs.

I think this will be a real problem as more retraining programs start turning people out: that many companies' hiring processes aren't able to see, let alone hire them.

[busterarm]

Almost all of us got jobs, eventually (in 6 months), out of every cohort... ...but my bootcamp was one of the best ones.

Unlike most of my cohort, I mostly relied on networking/HN to find jobs - most folks just apply via normal channels. I had a high in-person interview percentage from that, but I ultimately ended up getting my fulltime gig off Stack Overflow Careers.

The contract I landed via NYC.rb before that was a shitshow.

[xivzgrev]

I was in a boot camp and have worked at two companies. The hiring managers at both looked for unteachable skills (e.g. analytic ability, proactiveness, hunger) and figured youd pick up the rest. The skills I learned in boot camp were mostly a talking point / nice to have / piqued their curiosity.

They're hiring managers who want to pay a little less and are looking at the long term potential not the next 3 to 6 months. Of course that's why first job didn't work out - we went thru an acquisition and CEO mind went from long term potential to I needed results yesterday damnit :D

[totalrobe]

From personal experience, it's better to try to make a move within a related industry - for example if she has law experience, look for software companies that create applications and systems used in the law world.

She could probably more easily get into a more client-facing role where domain experience is a plus, like project/product management or some kind of implementation/consultant position. From there, she could make a lateral move into a more techie role if desired.

[cscharenberg]

You might be onto something there. I will pass that thought onto her, that a legal-focused software company may give her more of a look than others. Thanks for the idea

[spdionis]

Wasn't that obvious?! Sorry for the tone of the comment but really...

[waterlesscloud]

Remember, though, America has a critical shortage of programmers and we desperately need to allow more to immigrate!!!

[HillaryBriss]

Adding to that paradox, a major theme of the original post is that personal connections are really important to getting a startup job.

So, startups are really looking hard outside the founders' circle of friends to find the most qualified applicants?

[cscharenberg]

This is something I commented on recently. Retraining programs and those already in the industry say social networking will get these people jobs. But they have the weakest networks in their new career. Yes, I could reach into 100 companies through my network and get an interview. A new person cannot. The assumption of using social networks is true only for those already established.

Longer discussion of that as a comment on this blog post (http://www.siliconsloper.com/2016/02/tech-hire-utah-initiati...)

[gizi]

Virtual teams do not need to deal with immigration. So, what's next? Immigration offices on the backbones of the internet?

[wdewind]

Apply to startups. I don't know what else to tell you. I'm seeing TONS of people (for better or worse) get placed in jobs after completing coding bootcamps. Some of them have >90% placement rates.

[jlees]

Startups (depending on the size) are both wonderful and terrible places for a new bootcamp grad. There is a lot to learn, and learn quickly, which is something any bootcamp grad has had to master -- but there is often a dearth of mentoring and, as time goes on, patience for junior mistakes. Larger startups are much better than small ones, in my experience working both on the startup and bootcamp (instructor, mentor) sides of the table -- especially larger startups who have already hired from that bootcamp, or a similar one, before. Then you have the alumni-mentor train going, and life is great.

[mathattack]

Very good point. You can only get hired for potential early in your career. This is one reason it's so hard to switch careers later on. Going back to school is the only other way to get a "reset".