[jerf]

"Rust's ownership/borrowing system is hard because it creates a whole new class of side effects."

I'd submit it doesn't create them... it reveals them. They've always been there. Almost every other language fails to shine the light on them, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. All GC'ed languages still have issues of ownership, especially if threaded, and all non-GC'ed languages have all the issues Rust has... it's just that the language doesn't help you.

[dpc_pw]

After coding in Rust, I got paranoid about writting any C. I always knew the issues of ownership, concurrent access, allocation etc. are there, and I had to think about them anyway, but after explicitly dealing with them in Rust all the time, I see them now so clearly. They're everywhere, and without language support it's so easy to overlook eg. iterator invalidation issues, or aliasing.

Sure, in practice, if you keep your code neat and well designed, and hopefully not too big, it's hard to really trigger such bugs, but in a bigger codebase it's so easy to overlook them...

[gnuvince]

Worse, when in C you finally convince yourself that a particular piece of code is free of ownership issues, another programmer can come in, add a single line of code or do a "helpful" refactoring and suddenly the issues are back.

[klodolph]

Don't be so quick to say that Rust is doing the "right thing" here. An early example in the article shows one of the big Rust gotchas: you want to borrow a reference to a part of a structure, but if you encapsulate that in a function which takes a reference to the enclosing structure, the entire enclosing structure is borrowed. This isn't a revealed side effect, this is an invented side effect that is an artifact of the type system.

[nostrademons]

I thought that was one of the most fascinating parts - Rust's borrow-checker enforces the Law of Demeter and Principle of Least Privilege as a side-effect.

Code that takes a full structure when it only needs to operate on a part of the structure is badly designed. It's not conveying the full information about the data that it actually needs, which means that unexpected dependencies can crop up, implicit in the body of the function, as the code is modified later on. This is behind a lot of long-term maintenance messes; I remember a few multi-year projects at Google to break up "data whales" where a single class had become a dumping ground for all the information needed within a request.

Thing is, we all do it, because taking a reference to a general object and then pulling out the specific parts you need means that you don't have to change the function signature if the specific parts you need change. This saves a lot of work when you're iterating quickly and discovering new requirements. You're trading ease of modification now for difficulty of comprehension later, which is usually the economically wise choice for you but means that the people who come after you will have a mess to untangle.

This makes me think that Rust will be a very poor language for exploratory programming, but a very good one for programming-in-the-large, where you're building a massive system for requirements that are largely known.

[tatterdemalion]

> I thought that was one of the most fascinating parts - Rust's borrow-checker enforces the Law of Demeter and Principle of Least Privilege as a side-effect.

I really don't agree with this comment (I program in Rust a lot). Borrowck is a godsend in many ways, but this is a weakness (that can be improved!). It prevents things like `self.mutate_my_foo(self.access_my_bar())`. There are workarounds for the problems this presents, but they should have to be.

It is _great_ that borrowck helps you control aliasing and mutation of state. It is _frustrating_ that borrowck can't distinguish a borrow of `self.foo` from a borrow of `self`.

"Law of Demeter" is enforced through privacy - as the `self` in the example above shows, these are all happening within the private scope of the 'object.'

[nostrademons]

The "Law of Demeter" means something very specific in OO programming, often expressed by the rules:

  1. You can play with yourself
  2. You can play with your own toys (but you can't take them apart)
  3. You can play with the toys that were given to you.
  4. And you can play with toys you've made yourself.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/LawOfDemeter?LawOfDemeter

Put simply, it means that you shouldn't attempt to destructure or inspect the arguments that were passed to you. If you're passed a point and need to access point.x and point.y, then you're a method on the wrong class; you should be a method on Point instead. If you're passed a file but only need to access file.path, your parameter type is wrong: you should take a filepath instead and let your caller destructure for you. If you need to access foo.bar and foo.baz but foo has 20 data members, you should collect bar and baz on its own sub-structure and pass that in directly, or better yet, make your function a method on the sub structure. If you need to self.mutate_my_foo(self.access_my_bar()), you should call self.foo.mutate(self.access_my_bar()). And so on - the point is for each function to have the minimal knowledge necessary to complete its task, and any decisions unrelated to that task should be propagated up to higher levels of the program.

I won't deny that this is frustrating, and I thought I acknowledged that in the original comment. The Law of Demeter has been very controversial in OO circles, because it's so restrictive that pretty much nobody can actually adhere to it without creating so much work for themselves that their project ships late. In forcing your code to always use the minimal set of data necessary, you force yourself to change the code (including many potentially highly-used APIs) every time you add or remove a data dependency, which is usually impractical. The whole category of dependency injection frameworks was invented to automate much of this plumbing work.

But I find it fascinating that Rust's borrow-checker has basically forced it down on one side of the tradeoff. It has a bunch of implications for what Rust is good at and what Rust is not good at.

[tatterdemalion]

I understand the law of Demeter (and like many OO design patterns, I think it misses the mark). You don't know Rust well enough. `self.foo.mutate(self.access_my_bar())` is a borrowck error in the same way as `self.mutate_foo(self.access_my_bar())`. This also is only true in the event that one of the calls involves mutation. Really, this has nothing to do with the Law of Demeter, borrowck will find things that do not violate the law of demeter in error, and will allow things that do.

The issue here has to do with 1. borrowck's inability to infer the delimitation of mutable access to members of product types vs to the entire type, 2. borrowck's limited understanding of the order of evaluation.

I love Rust and want to write in Rust all the time, but you are overhyping the benefits of borrowck.

EDIT: A reason the law of Demeter is not great, in my opinion, is exactly a strength of borrowck - the issue isn't how much state a scope can read, but how much state a scope can write.

[jeremyjh]

>Code that takes a full structure when it only needs to operate on a part of the structure is badly designed.

No, it is not; this is done all the time with methods and it improves encapsulation - you may not want your clients to be able to decompose your data structures. Do you really mark every member of your data structures as pub??

Sorry but this is a poor ad-hoc defense of an actual annoyance in the borrow-checker.

[pshc]

>Code that takes a full structure when it only needs to operate on a part of the structure is badly designed.

I think this was a sensible statement, especially in context; I strongly agree that "this is behind a lot of long-term maintenance messes". And lost performance.

For encapsulation in Rust, traits are used to abstract and separate concerns, but they don't force you to bundle your data into large structures.

And encapsulation isn't an end in itself. Privacy has its uses (maintaining invariants, minimizing the exposed surface area of a library, etc.) but I find often in OO codebases that encapsulation creates its own problems. There is no substitute for careful data-oriented design; no amount of `private` will prevent your teammates from working around or ripping apart your carefully shrink-wrapped objects.

There is certainly some awkwardness in the borrow checker, but also great value.

[pdpi]

If you're trying to achieve proper encapsulation, you just have a module that implements some sort of functionality, and shouldn't need to borrow anything from it. The real question is why you're pulling data instead of pushing messages.

[tatterdemalion]

This is incorrect. "Sending a message" involves borrowing the data so that the method can run. `foo.bar()` borrows `foo`.

[pdpi]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. You are, of course, correct: you're only ever in a position to call a method if you hold a reference to the struct you're calling on.

My meaning was that you should favour a usage pattern that looks like you either move/copy things into the called method, or lend a reference to something you own (which is, presumably, not going to be held on to for very long), and then you're either given ownership of whatever return value you get, or get a reference whose lifetime depends on the arguments you passed in (but not the object itself). All of this ends up being quite clean, and you don't end up tying yourself into a borrowing knot.

You do end up in a weird place when your methods return references to fields of the owning object. When that happens, you're restricted in what you can do with the owning object until the reference goes out of scope. Rust mutexes are implemented precisely like that, which highlights what sort of behaviour you're getting from this usage pattern.

The former provides better encapsulation and more closely resembles the message-passing approach to OOP, whereas the latter pattern is not only not very ergonomic, it's quite indicative of poor encapsulation (because you're, by necessity, asking for internal state).

[yosefk]

I guess I like Rust (certainly more than I like C++), but I agree with you, and disagree with both sister comments, in that I think type systems do introduce artifacts which are then defended as "the right thing actually if you think about it the way the type system does" but they still are artifacts.

So today this helper function borrows one member and tomorrow it might need to borrow two, and every time you're supposed to change the interface to explain exactly what's happening. This is really tedious for a private helper and can be seriously problematic for a public interface, you don't do it in garbage-collected languages (which move the issue from the static type system into the dynamic run time system) and you don't do it in unsafe static languages (which move the issue from the static type system into your brain, which gets things right, some of the time.) The cost of moving it into the type system is as real as the benefit (not necessarily as big or small - it's hard to quantify these things and you need context - but certainly just as real) and it'd be great to see both acknowledged instead of having one or the other denied.

[seabee]

OTOH sometimes you ought to think about it the way the type system does, because its own limitations reflect those of other users of your code. The biggest one is consumers of your (public) interface, whose code shouldn't fail to compile if you merely change the implementation to use an additional struct member.

[KMag]

However, there are real lifetime and thread-safety side effects of passing a reference to the outer structure when you only need a reference to the inner structure.

In a GC'd language without an effects system, passing in a reference to the outer structure would still prevent the GC from freeing the outer structure (depending on the ABI, even if you null out the reference passed outer reference inside the function, the value passed on the stack might be immutable) and would also mean that you need to be careful about later changes causing non-thread-safe mutations to the outer structure. If your language isn't GC'd and doesn't have an effects system, then you need to manually keep track of the borrowing.

These aren't artifacts of Rust's type system; they're genuine side effects that are present but more subtle in other languages.

[tatterdemalion]

In Rust, the outer struct will not be freed either because you cannot pass a reference to a field of a struct before the struct is freed - you can mem::replace to get that field out of the struct, but that's rather different.

[asQuirreL]

Well, I would say it exposes a flaw in your interface, which would have given the function access to more information than it required. You know it's fine because you are aware of implementation details, but rust is telling you that your interface doesn't reflect that.

[jerf]

I didn't say Rust is doing the right thing. And it may create other issues where it does not 100% correctly reveal the issue.

However, I'd still say that issues arising in sharing a composite structure in pieces have always existed. Rust's solution may or may not be correct, but the issue is not something it is creating. Adopting Rust does not mean adopting a brand new set of problems that never existed before. It means seeing them clearly for what is probably the first time.

[Animats]

Exactly. C programming has three big questions: "How big is it", "who releases it", and "who locks it". The language gives little help with any of those issues. C++ tries to address all three, but the mechanisms were all painfully retrofitted using templates and they leak.

In the example in the article, "is_origin(point)", the code for which is not shown, is clearly bogus. A function that's just a predicate should not consume its input. It should use read-only access by reference.

One big advantage of Rust is that, because the ownership checking is safe, you don't have to make copies of things just to simplify memory allocation control. In some C++ GUI libraries, strings are copied again and again to prevent memory allocation errors. Rust should be more efficient. It's going to be interesting to see if Servo puts a dent in browser memory consumption. It's insane that browsers now can need more than 1GB of RAM. There have to be multiple copies of the same data.

[pcwalton]

> It's going to be interesting to see if Servo puts a dent in browser memory consumption. It's insane that browsers now can need more than 1GB of RAM. There have to be multiple copies of the same data.

Most of a browser's memory consumption usually consists of JS and DOM objects. In effect, the pages you're visiting are actually doing the bulk of the allocations, not your browser.

[Manishearth]

Though each DOM object might be smaller for us. Maybe.

Gecko has troubles with leaking the DOM because it CCs the DOM. We don't need to worry about that since Spidermonkey's GC manages the Servo DOM, too.

[pron]

> I'd submit it doesn't create them... it reveals them. They've always been there.

Hopefully, but not necessarily. Any (decidable) type system rejects well-typed programs (i.e., it "uncovers" problems that are not actually there), and the borrow checker is no exception. You will write some correct Rust programs that the borrow-checker just can't verify. This means that you will need to explain yourself in more detail (through more work) to the type checker, even though there was no mistake in your program. I think this is a good thing (depending on your requirements), but it isn't free.

[rntz]

> All GC'ed languages still have issues of ownership, especially if threaded,

This is not true. Ownership is only relevant in the presence of mutability. In a GC'ed language where most or all data is immutable, one rarely needs to think about ownership. In Rust, one needs to think about it all the time.

Rust is certainly a leg up compared to trying to write multithreaded C or C++ code, but that doesn't mean its approach is free of drawbacks.

Empirically, even in Python - a mutable-by-default language - I find myself rarely having to think about ownership. That could be an artifact of the kind of Python programs I find myself writing, though. I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences on that front.

[Gankro]

Your operating system, and the outside world, is a shared mutable resource -- particularly file systems and network connections. Even in Haskell, you can explicitly close a file (the docs recommend it!), and if you shared that file with anyone else they'll start erroring out.

That said, programming languages (on their own) can't really do anything about other processes/computers interacting poorly with yours! The ultimate semantic of ownership is still there, though.

There's also the ST Monad, which provides safe mutability in Haskell by enforcing that the mutated state doesn't escape a region of the program. This is literally the same idea as the borrow checker.

[jerf]

Stipulated about immutability.

"I find myself rarely having to think about ownership. That could be an artifact of the kind of Python programs..."

Python still can have action-at-a-distance, where things unexpectedly change as a result of executing code. The single-threaded analog to a race condition is less severe because it's at least deterministic, but can still make programming difficult to understand.

[sixbrx]

> Ownership is only relevant in the presence of mutability. In a GC'ed language where most or all data is immutable, one rarely needs to think about ownership.

If mutability isn't needed, then you would declare the self parameter as a simple (non-exclusive) borrow, and you can borrow from it or parts of it freely without inteferance from the compiler.

[hinkley]

When people asked my why I used Java this was pretty much my answer. I got tired of having to design all of my code around figuring out who owned the arguments, and what happened when it wasn't always the same answer. I can call a method that borrows the value from one that takes ownership, but I can't do vice versa.

I have six other things that will kill my app faster than a memory leak, but I have to design this shit first? No thank you. Rust is on my list of things to learn in 2016 and I'm hoping its borrowing semantics will feel like a solution to this problem without having to sign up for nondeterministic application pauses in the bargain.

[pdpi]

Same as Haskell and IO, really. Every interesting language has side-effects, Haskell just forces you to be explicit about where you're using them.