[BuckRogers]

>Anyone else wanna share?

Yes please do (everyone). The reason is to drive wages up. Hiding this knowledge doesn't protect YOU, it raises the bar for your next job. They're going to outsource and insource you anyway so that's nothing to fear.

Looking for an entry level Django gig and have always wondered what it should be (of course market matters). Generally stated, finding -any- developer under 85K is a bargain IMO and you pretty much confirmed that. I know many make less than 85 (like me), but I've had it with being taken advantage of as well. Only have so many healthy years to provide, next job is going to be the right deal to take care of my family.

[epa]

Why wait for the next job? If both you and your employer understand your wage is under market value, your work is good, and you are reliable, why are you hesitating bringing up your current pay? Give them a number that works for you.

[BuckRogers]

*edit- wow that ended up a lot longer than intended.

Interesting point and totally valid. I agree with your sentiment, though sitting back, it reads idealistic to me. Easier stated than done. But I did exactly that last year. My manager and his, our director responded well to it. I was prepared to walk if they feigned offense/anger (had that happen once years ago at another place). I got a decent raise, 10%. I don't expect any existing job to go much further than that TBH. Usually asking for 10% or more will earn you a good laugh.. your initial salary usually sets the pace till you leave.

I felt that was them being generous as a very large corporation such as mine goes. It was out of bounds, did not affect this year's standard raise and so forth. I've made them a lot of money, hundreds of thousands a year in direct billables for 5 years now, I think I peaked there in 2013 at $400,000 for the company. At my rate, $220 that's almost billing all day everyday for the year. Of course, I have a support system but you still have to bill the time and do the work. Plus the intangible benefits of my employment there and have been getting "exceeds expectations" for the last couple of years. I don't think there's a time that I didn't come through, and I never say/said "I don't know" to things (which drives me nuts to hear from people as I'm a stubborn researcher). I mentioned all of this, had hard numbers ready and so forth when asking for the raise.

I didn't hesitate to ask for it when the time was right. 4 years of pretty clutch contributions (if I must say so myself) and a large, critical project coming up that only I could accomplish for them (they foolishly let everyone else go with knowledge of the product). But you can't keep going back time and time again asking for bigger raises, and that 10% was determined by HR doing their market research. I didn't get to give any input. To put me where I should be would've been a 20K raise. I knew that was a pretty tough task though- that's a switching jobs raise.

So at this point, I pretty much have to drop the salary point and continue working. I don't think it's right to keep asking for more without a role change, promotion or significant time passing, it kind of shows they never should've played ball the first time IMO. If I want a big raise again, I'll just have to move on one day. I wouldn't mind switching stacks anyway to something Python. I'm also able to work from home, so I'm looking for the best place to put down some roots and start looking for that role. Austin, Vancouver, WA (Portland) or Chicago. So that freedom has a lot of value.

I'm only hesitant to do that because most of my career has been abusive, long unpaid overtime and I've been fairly easy to exploit because I was your typical virtuous midwesterner who has been turned fairly cynical when I found said values like "work hard, get the money" weren't really true. I have a strong sense of justice, so when I feel wronged I get fired up.

My belief was that if I came through on every job and project, I'd be recognized and taken care of. It's not true, you're just the dummy who works his ass off sacrificing your health in the process. When you're burned, they dump you for a new model. No one cares about you. You just need to shut the laptop down at 5:30PM and walk out the door. Damn what everyone else does or thinks, as unpaid overtime is the root of all evil.

The last couple of years it's been the first time I've received humane treatment and spooked to start over somewhere else. :)

Like I said, it's a very large corporation and I highly dislike the lack of passionate employees for the tech. It's a technical graveyard. But there's not much drama and nonsense going on, which I appreciate. So many offices are full of clowns and egos and I'm glad to be out of that. Not to mention, after 5 years everyone knows me, and I know I'm not perfect either.

It's a balance, money isn't everything but getting as much as possible without being made miserable is the goal. I almost got so burned up that I didn't want anything to do with tech-anything, and I'm really glad I didn't quite reach that threshold.

Some point I'll seek out that new role for the bigger raise, and get out of the tech graveyard. I'm bored, capable of more and I need to do it for my wife and kids we're aiming to have.

[JohnBooty]

I feel you on this:

    The last couple of years it's been the first time I've
    received humane treatment and spooked to start over 
    somewhere else.

Like you I struggle with trying to do the right thing, and put in unhealthy hours. Although it sounds like I haven't reached your level of enlightenment yet (even though I think I'm a few years older than you).

I think the trap I fall into is telling myself that the long hours are for my own good. "Well, at least this 58302-hour week is helping me to really polish my skills in this stack." Which is actually fucking true to an extent, which is why it's a seductive trap. I mean, there really is no substitute for putting in the hours if you're looking to hone a craft. And honing that craft is a big part of what will allow one to earn for one's family 5, 10, 20 years down the line.

But people say, "so look for a new job if this one's unhealthy!" like it's as easy as changing a pair of socks.

Changing jobs is challenging and disruptive and it's very difficult to ensure you'll wind up at a company with a healthier culture, particularly if you're already working at a company with a culture that's already above average for your field. And especially if the workaholism problem largely comes from inside yourself, like it does for me. Changing companies won't fix that.

It's even more complicated when explaining myself to family because of the bizarre image that people have of the tech industry! People see Google's "adult playground for engineers" workplace image in stories on 60 minutes and think the life of a programmer is just playing around all day long. It's not even that way at Google, much less your average tech company.

[seivan]

I still think doing the right thing is important. It burns you out, causes health issues, and doesn't mean it will pay off, but it's important in general. It hasn't been positive for me yet, and has created a long strand of negative issues, as mentioned above. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future, but I am not willing to part with that part just yet.

These daus I don't even want it to pay off financially, I just want to make something to be proud over and stability. I remember seeing an article on how Marissa Mayer was displeased with being demoted to Maps. I thought how amazing one has to be, to be demoted to Maps.