[cperciva]

To elaborate on "baroque": autotools spends a lot of time and effort on detecting behaviours which (a) no new Unix system has exhibited for at least two decades, and (b) your code almost certainly isn't going to be able to handle anyway.

Autotools was great once, but the world has moved on. Write code which is POSIX compliant and skip the whole mess.

[dmm]

As a user building packages I like autotools because of its uniformity. If I want to change the install root I use "--prefix". If I want to crosscompile I can set "--build" and "--host". If I need to set a compiler flag, autotools actually observes CFLAGS.

A few years ago I was trying to install a python extension and I couldn't figure out how to set a cflag on the native code it was compiling. It ignored CC, CFLAGS, etc. The documentation said nothing about it, super frustrating.

[scrollaway]

CMake is a million times better than autotools and respects prefix-setting, cross compiling etc in standard ways as well. Uniformity is not unique to autotools.

CPython extension building, however, sucks. setup.py is a bit of an abomination... It's really every language decides to reinvent the wheel for their own language. By now we could've had standards, and standard software, for package distribution and installation instead of having pip, go get, npm and a thousand others.

[dmm]

cmake is very nice. I used it in my last big c++ project. The cmake language is ugly but I think it's a law or something that build tools use ugly languages.

One advantage of autotools is that it distributes everything as a portable shell script, so the user doesn't have to have a autoconf, etc installed. That was an advantage when giving tarballs to users to run on crazy cluster environments, for example. Anything that calls itself unix has to have a bourne shell. Oh well probably not that big of an advantage these days.

I was really complaining more about dunno-works-on-ubuntu GNUMakefiles and 90s scripting languages extention builds.

[scrollaway]

I agree, the CMake language is needlessly different and ugly. But it's readable and usable which matters a lot more.

I heard there's movement inside the CMake community to move to lua as a language, which would be awesome.

[antonyme]

CMake actually does platform probing (test compiling with code fragments to identify platform features and quirks) in a similar manner to autotools. But it is much easier to work with, and significantly better documented. I find the syntax shouty and verbose but it does the job, and has proven its mettle in many large, complex cross-platform projects.

As for CPython extensions, I can relate also. Though the cffi makes some of it redundant, and Boost::Python is brilliant for wrapping C++ projects.

[striking]

Is there a way other languages could fit into an established build framework like CMake?

Or is this a "bigger problem" that no one has really tackled yet?

[scrollaway]

It's a "bigger problem". New languages bring new build systems and there really isn't much you can do about that.

However, what could be standardized is package distribution. I shouldn't have to have 10 different package managers for 10 different languages, each of them with different ways of expressing essentially the same metadata, etc.

As a language developer, I shouldn't be expected to create my own version of a package manager, with download, local / remote search, versioning, vcs support, upgrades, hooks, and a million other things. Package managers are complex beasts.

It's a bit like if every javascript project was expected to create its own http server. Except it's not http, it's a weird custom protocol they invented just for the sake of it. Naaaaasty.

[striking]

Arch Linux's "pacman" is exactly what you're looking for in those regards (to some degree). The only problem is that using pacman repositories instead of the language builtin ones means you're going to have issues with global installation and so on and so forth.

But you raise some really good points. I have to ponder this further.

[scrollaway]

Of course! pacman is one of the best package managers out there (and the best I've personally used). But its developers sadly don't share in the vision of using pacman outside Arch Linux. It's a wonder it works on msys2.

It's a point I tried to raise in the past but without much success. If you want to start a project to fix this, email me (especially if it's centered around pacman - I'm an arch TU).

[illumen]

Weird. CC and CFLAGS should both work with standard distutils.

[dmm]

That's the frustrating thing, other python libraries worked fine. That one must have been doing something weird.

[Someone]

For a classic rant on (a), read "A Generation Lost in the Bazaar" (https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2349257)

I don't think you can skip the whole mess, though. Firstly, systems will have bugs, and standards will have holes, so you will have to check for specific behavior (in the case of POSIX, there's the added question of "what POSIX?")

The way forward, I think, is to periodically change the definition of what one can expect a system to have, and, after that, adjust configure scripts to assume that level is present.

Problem with that is that maintaining configure scripts for software isn't fun, so those for less used software will rot, anyways.

Also, that does nothing about the problem that building X requires several different versions of language L, plus language M, plus obscure language N, each of which basically get used as batch language, but got used because their respective developers were most comfortable with it.

Fixing that requires someone to spend time standardizing the build system across thousands of packages. That won't happen because it isn't fun, and not _that_ annoying for _that_ many people. Also, having fixed it, the probability of getting all upstream packages to accept your choices is zero.

And even if one were to do all of that, the problem that building Firefox requires libtiff, while Firefox doesn't handle TIFF images likely would remain.

Fixing that would require someone to properly engineer both the dependencies and the boundaries across thousands of open source packages. That won't happen, either. Extremely annoying issues such as (almost) circular dependencies (e.g. product P embeds a scripting language S, which uses library L, whose build system requires S) will be corrected, but nobody will either have the will to properly refactor all packages, the endurance to keep doing it, or the power to enforce it.

[antonyme]

Yes, indeed. There are so many anachronistic features that bog it down with baggage and complexity and slowness.

It is easier now than ever before to port code between the major platforms, and especially with frameworks such as Qt.