[mfburnett]

Hm, I think though there will be serious societal consequences to climate change in particular - particularly around scarcity of resources (we may not "run out" but there is a finite amount of resources that we are rapidly using up) and territorial claims (I think they will shift from land to sea, as we're already seeing with the South China Sea and the Arctic) - while humanity will continue growing and expanding, it's about consciously shaping what we want that expansion to look like. I really liked the point about multiple perspectives - "Most important, we need to give up defending and protecting our truth, our perspective, our Western values, and understand that truth is found not in one perspective but in their multiplication, not in one point of view but in the aggregate, not in opposition but in the whole."

[arpa]

On the other hand giving up western values would produce a vacuum so abhorred by nature; The truth in multiplication and aggregation of perspective is actually one of the western values, as is egalitarianism of sexes and races. To give up these values is to replace them with ones quite potentially less humanitarian; who in their sane mind (and education) would rally us to give up enlightenment and rationalism as values? If anything, we must cherish and defend them, while simultaneously expanding them. Now the platform for those values - the dogma - is of another question; if we are talking about progressing economic systems, social systems, methods of up-keeping our values - count me in. But casting all values aside, while so Nietzschely romantic (breaking old tables without having written new ones), is short-sighted and very, very dangerous.

[douglance]

Get rid of religiosity and give me scientific education and political decision making and we will be fine

[vlehto]

Problem here is that we don't have "scientific" viable moral framework. Western values are built on the fading influences of Catholicism and Protestantism, neither is coming back. Utilitarianism has been trying to break into mainstream, but its not really applicable to real life.

Then there is individualism. But it has gone bit too far. It is currently making people lonely, unsafe and unhappy. Then as persons yearn for collectivity, they are giving up their privacy in virtualized group meetings over internet.

[dragonwriter]

There's no such thing as a scientific moral framework; the concept is incoherent, like a four-sided triangle. Science answers "is" questions, not "ought" questions.

Science can inform moral decisions by providing information about which actions will achieve the goals set by a moral framework, but not can't provide you with a moral framework.

(Specific religions also probably get too much credit for providing moral framework; while its not an incoherent idea, its usually inaccurate -- usually, a moral framework coevolves with a religion, or has a religion constructed -- ot split off from some predecesssor -- to support it, rather than really emerging from the religion.)

[vlehto]

I don't really care if religions didn't create moral frameworks. The point is that a religion can justify one. "Why can't I kill Joe, he is an asshole! - Because God said murder is wrong."

Philosophy might be able to do that too, but the west doesn't seem to be aligning behind any one philosophy. And there are no credible purely philosophical moral frameworks to pick from.

[dragonwriter]

> Philosophy might be able to do that too, but the west doesn't seem to be aligning behind any one philosophy.

The West was never united behind one religious moral framework even when it had, at the highest descriptive level, one dominant religion -- both racial/sexual equality (as cited above) and strong racial/sexual discrimination were justified by reference to Christianity; likewise both religious tolerance and religious persecution have been.

"People don't agree on one moral framework" is an issue, sure, but its not a new issue in the West, nor is it one in anyway linked to the decline in the dominance of Christianity.

> And there are no credible purely philosophical moral frameworks to pick from.

There are plenty of moral frameworks not grounded in religion to pick from (everyone, inevitably, has a moral framework, and lots of people don't have religions.)

Not sure what your criteria for "credible" is, or how you've determined that no existing non-religious moral framework satisfies it.

[douglance]

Which resources are we running out of? The Earth is made out of the same stuff as us. It's huge.

We are not running out of resources. We may be running low on easily accessed, cheap resources.

We will adapt. New mining tech and asteroid mining will give more resources than we could use. There's accessible asteroids that have enough platinum to give each person on earth thousands of dollars. That's just one of millions. The resources will never run out.