[dasil003]

I'm not 100% sure from your comment, but are you suggesting that by default you should vet every version exactly and freeze it at the point you defined it?

As someone writing a lot of ruby, "give me whatever" is analogous to "give me the latest unless I specify otherwise", which I consider to be a very good default. It keeps me up to date with security issues, and incompatibilities between libraries that the respective maintainers resolve amongst themselves with a minimum of manual work.

[technomancy]

> are you suggesting that by default you should vet every version exactly and freeze it at the point you defined it?

Yes, this is the way that Guix and Leiningen and rebar3 and a bunch of other things work, and it is wonderful.

Pulling in new code without you asking is a fine idea for something like apt-get where you have a huge team doing QA on the entire system working together before it even hits your repositories, but for most package managers, the dev team is the one doing the testing, and upgrades should be done only with great care.

It does mean you have to watch for security updates, but this is true of all package managers.

[cstrahan]

> Yes, this is the way that Guix and Leiningen and rebar3 and a bunch of other things work, and it is wonderful.

Even in Nix/Guix, it's still ideal for upstream projects to express their dependencies in terms of ranges (semver-wise), otherwise we run into the problem have either really large run-time dependency closures, or problems around e.g. wanting to use multiple (overly specified) versions of C libs within the same process.

As the current maintainer of Nixpkgs' Bundler-based build infrastructure, I've found the lockfile approach that Bundler uses to be quite frustrating - in part because Bundler's design is antithetical to packaging, but also due to the build times and sizes of the resulting packages, compared to C libraries. (People give C a hard time wrt productivity and security and such, but when it comes to packaging, C libs are usually so much easier to work with than most other higher level languages.)

I would love to see more adoption of semver, and possibly Haskell's PVP (https://wiki.haskell.org/Package_versioning_policy). Granted, dynamic programming languages don't have the benefit of making API breakage obvious at build time, so perhaps the best we can do in such cases -- if we want any certainty that packaged applications will actually function correctly -- is lock down every dependency version precisely per application...

[dasil003]

If you want to do this in ruby you can just specify a version manually. If you don't, you still get versions frozen by default with Gemfile.lock. It doesn't pull in anything automatically—by default you get no updates, you can choose to update a single dependency, or the whole thing if you want to verify it works on the latest (useful for libraries for instance). I'm not sure I see the downside.

FWIW I have been doing ruby for over a decade now, and I hold up Bundler as one of the great success stories of open source, and it is one of the reasons I hold Yehuda Katz in high regard, in that he was able to solve a really big problem in the community and hammer it into shape aggressively over a period of two years with a lot of doubters and naysayers (even Rubygems core was against Bundler for a long time), until it finally got so solid for so many use cases (libraries vs apps, private vs public, development vs deployment, etc, etc) where it solved nearly everyone's problems in such a solid way that everyone adopted it.

[technomancy]

> I hold up Bundler as one of the great success stories of open source

It's a great success in many ways, but the problem it solves is completely self-inflicted by rubygems. I've also been doing Ruby for over a decade, but I've also learned a lot from other library ecosystems, and I feel pretty confident saying that disallowing version ranges makes all those headaches completely evaporate.

[glenjamin]

I'm with you that version ranges cause problems, but my belief is that lockfiles are a better solution.

Generally I'd use semver ranges in libraries, and then fixed versions + lockfiles for transitive deps in applications.

I suppose this is roughly equivalent to doing `:pedantic :abort` in leiningen, except you wont't have as many warning to squash - either way you have to rely on the test suite to tell you if the versions you've pegged work.

[caoilte]

I've also been on that journey and am starting to feel the same way about variance.

[caoilte]

We use Ruby extensively in testing and infrastructure and have lost months of cumulative developer time to this attitude. It works for a single user constantly making changes to a small piece of code and prepared to work out the solution to dependency change problems as soon as they come up. However, it doesn't scale to a team of people working on very large code bases.

One example of this is having a repeatable developer setup guide. If the dependencies might have changed by the time a new joiner starts your setup guide could very easily end up useless or misleading and that's without anything at all in your own codebase having changed.

Shrinkwrap fixes this, but always gets added after things went wrong several times already. It should be the default.