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by outworlder 3802 days ago
> I wonder if it would be physically possible to utilize the Earth's extremely weak magnetic field to support any meaningful mass?

I bet that THERE IS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

Have we even figured out what magnetic fields actually are? Magnetism, and magnetic fields, are always defined in terms of what we observe. Usually called a "force".

For instance: Magnetism, n: "a physical phenomenon produced by the motion of electric charge, resulting in attractive and repulsive forces between objects"

Ok, fine. What is a "force"? That is also defined in terms of things we observe. Which is fine. But what we observe, and what something actually is, are two different things.

I know that Feynman said something along the lines that "we question what magnetism is, but we never question the fact that your hand cannot go through a solid object". Well, I do. And that will boil down to other "forces" in the atoms.

How far have we followed that rabbit hole? I can't find much. If you start from magnetism, you'll be led to electromagnetism, then eventually to quantum electrodynamics. Which, from a layman perspective, just shifts which part of the phenomena we choose to handwave away. So you change from "forces" to "interactions".

In the unlikely chance that there are theoretical physicists on Hacker News reading a thread about UFOs, I'd really like to get an idea how much we actually know about all this. My uneducated hunch is that there is a lot of undiscovered fundamental physics waiting for us.

2 comments

Experimental Physicist here. I don't know how unlikely it is that I'm reading this on a Friday night. No, I have a life, really.

We know quite a bit about electromagnetism. There probably is lots of undiscovered fundamental physics. However, we wouldn't necessarily need to discover new physics in order to do cool stuff like float something on the Earth's magnetic field. The breadth of phenomena which electromagnetism covers is huge, and many people spend a whole career working with just that one force. It might just be that we haven't thought of the right way to use it yet.

The difficulty with floating something on the Earth's magnetic field is actually less about the strength of the field, than it is about its gradient. Because the Earth is so big, for the field to change by a few percent takes many miles of distance This is assuming we are talking about the average field as a whole, and not any anomalies which distort it, because if you are using a distortion of the field, whatever is distorting the field, like a magnet, is really what you will be pushing against.

Because force = energy divided by distance, and the strength of the earth's magnetic field is essentially a energy density, if even a weak field changed over a small distance, an appreciable force could be generated on an object which interacted with that high gradient field.

But since the Earth's field changes very slowly over distance, most of the ways of interacting with the field (like using an electromagnet such as in an electric motor) won't give us very much force. Instead, we would have to use some other means which depended less upon the field gradient. Some of these other effects would be e.g. the Hall effect, or an E x B drift.

There is sufficient data about it, electromagnetism is probably the best studied field in physics to date. Magnetism is in it's base not generated due to the modulation of an electric charge but due to a much more basic attribute of charged particles, their magnetic moment which is a result of their spin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_magnetic_moment So until you find a zero spin charged particle with a magnetic moment (which will contradict everything we understand about magnetism) I'll bet on that we understand it quite well.

As far as UFO's using the Earths magnetic field we can pretty much rule that out because we know just how weak it is on average it is about 30 Tesla, and 16 Tesla's is about the force required to levitate a frog. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420771.600-frog-def...

So unless flying saucers weight just about as 2 mid sized frogs I'll take the bet that if they do exist they use something else to keep them from crashing in the backyards of hillbillies.

"Earths magnetic field...is on average it is about 30 Tesla, and 16 Tesla's is about the force required to levitate a frog...So unless flying saucers weight just about as 2 mid sized frogs I'll take the bet that if they do exist they use something else to keep them from crashing"

Something about this doesn't make sense. Probably has to do with the answer to this question: Why don't frogs normally float due to the Earth's magnetic field?

This is incorrect. The Earth's magnetic field is about 30 microTesla, not 30 Tesla. Also, the flog floating effect (one of my old profs actually did that experiment!) depends upon the field gradient as well as the field strength.

Field strength is not the same as force. The reason why they don't levitate things bigger than frogs with a 16 Tesla field is because bigger things won't fit into the magnet bore, not because 16 T is too weak. One of the techs who worked on one of those serious magnets (at NHMFL) told me that if they put an iron bar in the middle of the bore, it would generate enough force to lift a 747. Of course, that much force would probably break the floor under the magnet, and it's really hard to fit a 747 into the lab.