[bphogan]

> and experienced developers usually come to appreciate it.

I find statements like this a bit condescending. It's like when Java developers say 'Oh, that's nice, but I work on big applications." "Obviously you don't get it because you're not experienced. Experienced developers get it."

I'm sure that wasn't your intent. But it still irks me a bit.

I've been writing software for a very long time, in many languages and paradigms over the years. I believe that qualifies me as an experienced developer. My years of experience tell me that if I only experience pain 5% of the time, then the 95% of the time I don't experience the tools I use making me do extra work more than makes up for it. :)

[cookiecaper]

>I'm sure that wasn't your intent. But it still irks me a bit.

Correct. I meant it inclusively, like most of the Python community is either experienced developers who've worked in a lot of languages and have sought refuge in the sanity of Python or the apprentices of such developers. Python doesn't have a figure like DHH to give it sex appeal, so not many new people use it.

There are definitely experienced developers who have not yet had occasion to seriously enjoy and appreciate Python.

>My years of experience tell me that if I only experience pain 5% of the time, then the 95% of the time I don't experience the tools I use making me do extra work more than makes up for it. :)

I meant this as a count of the number of issues, not the amount of time it takes to resolve them. That 5% of problems caused by non-obvious implicit magical behavior usually take an inordinate amount of time to debug and solve, and then the workarounds are usually disgustingly ugly because the framework had never conceived that someone might have a valid reason to circumvent their magic. Even worse, this locked-down, "looking inside will void your warranty" attitude (which Rails often calls "convention over configuration") frequently means that the workaround must be somewhat pervasive and ugly up your code not just in one place, but in several places to really resolve the problem.

Experienced developers may not encounter this often if they don't use a lot of magical APIs that promote the systemic ambiguity of "do what I mean".

[bphogan]

> Even worse, this locked-down, "looking inside will void your warranty" attitude (which Rails often calls "convention over configuration") frequently means that the workaround must be somewhat pervasive and ugly up your code not just in one place, but in several places to really resolve the problem.

In 2005, when nobody used Rails, as a complete beginner to Ruby, I was able to write a patch to improve the Oracle database adapter. Somehow, despite all the magic, it took me very little time to find what to change and submit a patch. As a complete newbie to the language and platform.

Rails 2 and below revolved around a lot of hacks. Rails 3 removed many of those. Rails 4 even more so. Check out the book "Crafting Rails 4 Applications" to see how easy it is to hook into places in the framework to get what you need. (Disclosure: I'm the editor of that book.)

The argument you make about "voiding the warranty" is an argument I hear from people who have touched Rails for a project and hated it for one reason or another. It's not a sensible argument.

Remember, for centuries, people used "magic" to explain away something they didn't understand. :)

[cookiecaper]

>In 2005, when nobody used Rails, as a complete beginner to Ruby, I was able to write a patch to improve the Oracle database adapter. Somehow, despite all the magic, it took me very little time to find what to change and submit a patch. As a complete newbie to the language and platform.

One part of the system not being obfuscated doesn't mean that many other important parts aren't.

>Rails 2 and below revolved around a lot of hacks. Rails 3 removed many of those. Rails 4 even more so. Check out the book "Crafting Rails 4 Applications" to see how easy it is to hook into places in the framework to get what you need. (Disclosure: I'm the editor of that book.)

I currently maintain both Rail 2.3 and Rails 4 applications. I totally agree that Rails 4 is a much smoother experience. There are still hacks around the magic that I've had to implement. The one most immediately on the top of my head is one of the form generators ignoring the method argument in some circumstances because it knows better and forcing me to jury rig them into obeying the command anyway (with a bit of JavaScript that alters the method on-page IIRC).

>The argument you make about "voiding the warranty" is an argument I hear from people who have touched Rails for a project and hated it for one reason or another. It's not a sensible argument.

Of course it's a sensible argument. Frameworks shouldn't be causing those feelings in people -- the magic isn't magical if it's getting in the way. If people are coming away with the impression that the system will blow up or otherwise misbehave when they try to peel back the covers, it's ignorance to just blame them for feeling wrong. One should try to at least understand the problem; then, you can decide if it's a problem that needs correction or if you're just OK with people who want some flexibility and cooperation from the framework not using your stuff and be honest about that so that they don't have to waste their time.

>Remember, for centuries, people used "magic" to explain away something they didn't understand. :)

And, also for centuries, people used "magic" to hoodwink gullible people.