[zyxley]

Airlines taking away free snacks for customers feels like companies taking away free snacks for employees: it doesn't really matter much by itself for anyone involved, but it's an obvious signal that the management involved can't bother to even put a fig leaf on the matter of your personal comfort.

[Karunamon]

"Very many little things" is a great way of describing how bad air travel is. None of the issues are all that bad taken individually, but taken together, the experience is worse than the difference of its parts.

* Security (a stressful PITA)

* Boarding (never goes smoothly)

* Environment (tiny seats, loud, sick passengers, babies, etc)

* Service (rude/inattentive FA's, overpriced small extras that feel insulting)

* Delays (taking off, getting there, getting your bags)

And then then there's the one-offs. A bag gets lost, a connection gets missed, mechanical problems..

Most of this stuff can be addressed directly.

[scottkduncan]

There are also a few great things about modern air travel. For one, it has gotten considerably cheaper (and thus more accessible to a broad spectrum of consumers) over time. It's also amazingly safe for travel in a metal tube at 550 MPH 35,000 feet above the earth.

There are market-based products that would address many of your concerns if you are willing to pay. Prefer a larger seat or priority boarding? Try economy plus, which will also decrease the likelihood of sitting next to a baby and may get you more attentive service. The reality though is that collectively we prefer lower prices and choose flights almost exclusively by this metric, but then gripe about all the ways air travel could be better.

One study on the cost of airfare over time: https://www.aei.org/publication/the-cost-of-air-travel-in-th...

[Karunamon]

The problem with those value-adds is that they're priced completely out of the range of the utility you might get out of it.

Remember - little things. Yeah, having a few more inches of legroom would be nice, but $50 nice? I'm well over 6" here, and the seats are designed for the lowest common denominator. Unless I get a reclining seat in first, it's gonna suck.

Priority boarding, I never understood the point of. Okay, you get on the plane a bit faster to spend more time in tiny seats. If you didn't get a window seat, you're still moving over people. For another extra $30 or so.

Say I get 'em both. I've spent an extra $80 on a ticket, and from there, I'm about halfway to first class. The extra ~$120 would get me more legroom and a mediocre meal that I could have gotten in the airport for a tenth of the price and some positive multiple of the quality. Some might bring up the free drinks at this point, but I swear the FA's are trained to tactically ignore you after about two drinks.

On top of all that, there's the psychological aspect. It feels scummy and exploitative (indeed, it is scummy and exploitative).

So a victory for the "market", I guess, at the expense of basic humanity.

[ghaff]

There is always diminishing returns to travel upgrades. Maybe $100 (or whatever) gets you a bed but $300 get you a really comfy bed with a nice view. This also applies in all sorts of areas.

>Priority boarding, I never understood the point of.

A lot of it has to do with having overhead space. On a packed flight, you'll often have to check your carryon if you can't fit it under the seat in front of you if you're in a late boarding group.

[scottkduncan]

I'm totally with you on priority boarding - I don't get the appeal at all.

All I am saying is that the market responded to our collective preferences for airlines to compete on cost -- and we benefited from this in some ways because costs have fallen over time. It's likely that the $50 you might pay for economy plus would put you even on real terms with tickets/legroom from 10-20 years ago.

[Zigurd]

Making a product horrible in order to sell "less horrible" is not a great example of a market success.

[scottkduncan]

It's all in how you evaluate whether it is a horrible product. I consider economy class airfare a commodity and evaluate it on getting me to my destination safely and on time. Delays are obviously still an issue, and I do believe airlines should treat passengers as well as possible (prompt re-booking, compensation, hotel rooms, etc.) when their travel plans have been disrupted due to delays.

I also don't believe there was a historical glory day of air travel. It used to be far more expensive, with far fewer routes. International travel was MUCH more expensive, again with fewer routes. Fatal crashes were more frequent. We all used to complain about how bad airline food was...then they took it away and we complained about that too.

[Zigurd]

You don't have to believe in a "Golden Age" to think that sloth and greed drive airline operations to fall back on excuses about security and their TBTF status to monetize "less horrible" vs "horrible."

[ForHackernews]

Sure it is. It's a great example of market segmentation to recapture consumer surplus.

[ryanlol]

It's worth noting that due to airline loyalty programs frequent flyers tend to have a far superior experience than the guy that only flies a couple of times a year.

[ghaff]

It's not really "far superior" unless you have such high status that you always get upgraded--which is going to require something in the 100K+ miles/range. Airline Clubs and TSA Pre also help although those aren't directly related to frequent flyer status. There are some benefits to mid-tier status (e.g. Economy Plus on United) but you're still pretty much just flying coach and have all the same issues related to flight delays etc. as everyone else does.

[ryanlol]

100K+ miles isn't that much if you fly frequently though, a plenty of people do multiple times that.

[CyberDildonics]

Need to be humbled and reminded how small you are? Fly United.

[hellofunk]

What is odd is that even the cheapest budget airlines of Asia, and there are many, many of them, nearly all provide not just free snacks, but free hot meals.

[ghaff]

I imagine I'm the minority opinion--and Asian airline meals are generally better than US ones but that probably just reflects my preferences--but I actually don't especially regret the general demise of hot meals on most flights. They were always horrible in coach to the degree that I can recall joking cartoons about them. Serving the meals was disruptive and often stunk up the cabin.

Now, when it comes to passing out cold snacks, by all means.

[rconti]

Yeah. To be honest, I almost looked forward to layovers during air travel for my once- or twice- yearly McDonalds visit. The food options in airports, as dismal and overpriced as they tend to be, are gourmet fare compared with what's served on the airplane.

I'd just as soon not have to shuffle my laptop or book around to make space for lousy food.

[ghaff]

Many airport options have improved quite a bit--though most are still hardly cheap. At some point, the message seems to have gotten out--for at least some terminals--that very few people want pseudo-fine dining at airports but many want good, relatively fast food.

[pcurve]

I've flown on couple dozen airlines. Yes, Asian carriers are almost always better in terms of food. I was actually served medium cooked steak on Asiana. But the real difference is in their cabin attendants. x10 better.

But what I hate flying about isn't the food or CA service.

It's flying into and out of JFK. Everyone working there is f'king miserable. They treat people like live stocks. And their customs and immigration are incredibly inefficiently run.

[ghaff]

>But the real difference is in their cabin attendants. x10 better.

At least some of which is for reasons that, properly, wouldn't fly in the US. They hire young, attractive, college-educated women who are enjoying flying the world for a few years before they settle down and get married. And who are not expected to stay on once they've enjoyed those few years.

[GVIrish]

I'm sure that's some of it, but I suspect the bigger factor is that some of the other international carriers put a bigger emphasis on customer service. I don't thing being young, college-educated, or female matters nearly as much as working for an organization that prides itself on customer service.

[ghaff]

That's certainly fair. Although it's probably easier to implement that emphasis on customer service with young, enthusiastic people as opposed to a 25-year veteran who has been through various downsizings and contract disputes.

[pcurve]

You're probably right about that. That happens at any office work place settings too. Difference here is, you are in a customer-facing job, where your attentiveness and face you put on impacts customer satisfaction. If you can't keep customers happy as well as a 25-year old, then you don't belong in the cabin.

Look, I don't blame the front-line workers for any of this. This is almost all management's fault. Look at Southwest. Their attendants are better trained, more motivated, and are happier.

Better work environment and management are important, but they're paid 25% more than other airlines. SW will attract better talent and retain them. I'm sure other airlines wouldn't mind having SW style employees. But their management is not willing to pay for it.

[GVIrish]

Yeah I think a big component of the poor customer service with United is being beat down over years of cost-cutting. I've seen firsthand how they've drastically cut down the number of gate agents which leaves almost a skeleton crew to deal with customers. In that environment I'm sure it's hard for someone to be chipper and helpful.

[pcurve]

Doesn't hurt, but as per below comment, they are just much better trained to provide attentive and friendly service.

When I was waiting at impeccably maintained Osaka Kansai airport, I saw a flight attendant pickup small gum wrapper on floor that somebody else left behind. It's completely different mentality.

[mtanski]

The competition is Asian for Airlines is a lot more intense then in North America. Almost every country has a Carier or 2 or 3. They all fly to each other countries so there is a lot of choice. Every country has been expanding its airports for the 20 years. And competition is driving the use of brand new planes and perks.

Now look at North America. There are only 3 countries here. United States airlines are the largest carriers. In the past 20 years consolidation has reduced the number of airlines. That's why despite the huge drop in oily our not seeing ticket prices go down.

In most cities / airports there is one dominating airline and they know chances are you will take their flight.

There's times of the year (not holiday) when it's marginally more expensive for me to to Vietnam for a vacation then to visit my family living in Austin. This is from NYC.

[yinghang]

Except for Air Asia

[maxxxxx]

The stuff they sell is quite good. I much prefer paying form something decent than getting crap for free.

[jsprogrammer]

That crap isn't free (you did buy a ticket, right?).

[CyberDildonics]

They give snack but they sell meals.

[ams6110]

Free snacks (or meals) for employees is a quirk of tech employers. Or McDonald's.

At most employers you're lucky if they provide coffee (mine currently does not).