[DannyBee]

"I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. "

If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors, ISTM the people who don't care will just add COC's, and never enforce them.

You say "But, it does say, "We will excise toxic people. We will try to make you feel welcome here, even if you have been made to feel unwelcome elsewhere.""

It does not actually do that. It's one level removed from that. It's "we say we will excise toxic people.". It in fact, may be the case that you go to ask them to enforce it, and they say "sorry, don't care", even with a COC.

Then you are back to square 1. You essentially are trying to use the COC as a proxy for "communities that will care enough to put a stop to things" and i'm pretty much 100% it will not achieve this goal.

[SwellJoe]

Of course a CoC can't make a community actually do anything. These are Open Source communities we're talking about here, and nobody can make anyone do anything at all.

You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here."

That's all I'm saying it does, and all I'm suggesting it can do, and I say that's sufficient cause to implement a CoC, if you want more women and people of color in your community.

So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive. It is not a law, it is not a guarantee, it won't make assholes stop being assholes. It is a sign on the door saying, "We're gonna try to be welcoming. Come on in."

[DannyBee]

"You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here.""

See the part where i directly answer this: "If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors,"

IE if people stop going to projects without COC's, people will add COC's.

I'm not sure why you think anything else will happen.

"So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive."

It is this second. As I said, if it becomes a thing people look for, it will no longer be that, because everyone will just add them and ignore them. It will no longer be a signal for what you are looking for. It will achieve precisely nothing.

Again, I'm honestly befuddled why you think anything else would happen

Do you really think normal people trying to start projects are going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, and it seems i have to have a COC, that i don't care about, to do that, but i guess it would just be wrong to have a COC if i don't care?"

Or do you think they are just going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, i better add a COC that i don't really care about".

I mean, this is already happening. How many projects are like our OP, and basically go and say "well, i should probably add a COC, but i don't really care".

You need look no further than things like yellow/pink ribbons/flag pins senators wear/etc to see what will happen. These things were once signals of people who cared. Now they are just social norms.