[SwellJoe]

I spent many years trying to work out how that could be made to work, in a world where the people with the most money and ability to buy those resources being destroyed are also the people with the most interest in seeing them destroyed without impediment. I just can't make the math work out. When the oil and gas industry can cause wars involving the world's largest nations, in pursuit of their profits, how can I believe empowering them to buy every river will save those rivers? In a world where they can literally buy armies (even more directly and with even less impediment than they have today), how can I believe there will be less violence over oil?

I've read the same authors you've read on the subject (believe me, I hear you, and I have made the same arguments you're making more times than I can count). I was for many years a libertarian (big L and little l...card-carrying member of the party, worked for ballot access, etc.). I just don't believe in the premises of libertarianism any more. At least, not the free market uber alles part of those premises.

Also, I can't reconcile the idea of unlimited capital accumulation in the hands of a few that spans generations (e.g. land, water access, etc.) in a world of limited resources with my own beliefs about fairness, justice, and human freedom.

[chillwaves]

How do you feel about the notion of breaking from our feudal tradition and advocating for basic income? What excites me most about the idea is people would be free to check out of the system and use their own creativity to survive and thrive. Soon, when intellectual capital is understood to be the most valuable, this investment will be returned with dividends.

[SwellJoe]

I support a basic income. Honestly, I think it is inevitable, or a lot of people will starve as we move past the need for a lot of unskilled labor. There simply won't be work for everyone...if we adhere to the old notion that everyone has to earn the basic necessities of survival, well, the results will be catastrophic. It's unfortunate that we'll have to wait until everything else has been tried before settling on the one thing that could actually positively change outcomes for huge swaths of people. There's already a lost generation of people who will never escape their school debt.

[legutierr]

> I was for many years a libertarian (big L and little l...card-carrying member of the party, worked for ballot access, etc.). I just don't believe in the premises of libertarianism any more.

What took you so long?

[SwellJoe]

Limited exposure to some parts of the real world. I read a lot, worked a lot, and didn't make time for travel. I had few friends who were significantly different from me in terms of money/education/class/race/etc. Kinda like most people. A few years traveling full-time, getting to know homeless folks and undocumented folks, and seeing how class and race plays out in our "free market" system changed my mind on a few things.

And, I think dismissing libertarianism out of hand, as though it has no interesting/valuable ideas, is somewhat silly. The LP was literally decades ahead of the curve on LGBTQ rights, ending the war on drugs, and opposition to war (of all sorts). All at a time when those ideas were extremely unpopular in mainstream politics. I disagree with the premises behind their economic policy ideas, but it doesn't mean I don't understand the allure of the non-aggression principle (I just think they're mistaken about capitalism being free of aggression).

So, how about you? What took you so long to come to your views? Why weren't you born with the correct ideas on every issue? Or were you? You reckon you're right on everything now? How embarrassing it'll be when you find out in five years you were wrong about something today.

[legutierr]

I think you misread my comment as sarcasm. It was an honest inquiry, if a little facetious. I should have written it differently. Thanks for sharing.

Given that you ask, my views on these things seem to be very similar to yours today, based on what you've written here. I've considered myself a small-l libertarian for most of my life. I think the difference is that I've never found the ideological purity of big-L Libertarianism very attractive.

That's why I asked the question. I really would like to understand what it takes to convince someone who buys into the Libertarian party line to embrace ideas like basic income, and to realize that privatizing everything simply will not result in the outcomes they think it will. I wonder if it's possible to convince them without their having had the kinds of life experiences you have had.

I think that libertarian ideas and libertarian activists could be a effective force for reform in this country--if only the most motivated (people like you who are motivated enough to work on things like ballot access) were willing to make the kinds of ideological compromises and embrace the kinds of ideas (like basic income) that could make libertarianism more broadly appealing.

[SwellJoe]

My inquiry was also sincere, even if the tone seems harsh online. I was joking, on the assumption that most folks here are at least willing to examine their views on occasion.

The answer to what it takes to change minds on any subject?

Not taking a tone of "you're clearly an idiot". I do it all the time (particularly on issues I'm passionate about, like the horror that is animal agriculture), but it doesn't convince anyone, it just puts them on the defensive. And humans have somewhat broken brains such that defending a position makes one believe that position more strongly and more fiercely (even if it is demonstrably ridiculous; e.g. anti-vaccine folks).

Convince them to get outside of their comfort zone. Travel, activism, and volunteering, is what did it for me. Activism and volunteering probably need to be with and on behalf of folks unlike oneself to have any impact.

Ask questions rather than arguing. If someone discovers the uncomfortable points of their position on their own, they'll be willing to change their mind. One of the founders of CFAR (Center for Applied Rationality) once asked me a few questions that may have even planted the seeds of my change of heart when we happened to meet in NYC...specifically, she asked about the source of property rights, since I don't believe in gods, so I can't simply handwave it away as a " god given right". That stuck with me, because it's clear to anyone who is sincere that property is merely a fiction we all agree on, and it is a fiction that can be taken to unhealthy extremes. Asking the right questions is harder than ranting, but it actually works to change opinions, and serves to keep the conversation on a level of friendly chat rather than two ideologues bloviating.

And that's, maybe, all I know about that.

[afsina]

I think you just went to dark side. The side of snub deuche baggery people. Sorry could not help :)