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There are a lot of particular points to respond to here, but it seems your general critique is that treating the Bible as truth can be circular reasoning and that people are smart enough to twist any holy book to evil. The Bible actually agrees on these points and asks the readers to test groups and people against objectively good things to see if there is truth in action. Look for: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, appreciation of truth. These things are sometimes disdained and derided, but they're never wrong. On the other hand, be suspicious of: hate, abuse, envy, boasting, arrogance, rudeness, insistence on one's own way, irritability, resentfulness, and celebration in wrongdoing. It may seem odd to you, but a valid criticism of a Christian's ideas is pointing out where there out of line with these lists. A point delivered with irritability is a weak point for a Christian to make. And I guess you could extrapolate that to ideas and books... at least how they generally affect people. Edit: Regarding who has to prove God exists... I think nobody does. I don't have to prove it. Neither does He. I think it's better for you if you accept it, but that's your choice. You could ask God to prove Himself before you believe, I suppose. But understand that He is the creator of the universe and He feels He has already gone above and beyond for us. But He has also done amazing things to prove to people that He cares for them. I don't see how it could hurt to ask. There are good answers to your specific objections and concerns, and I'm interested in sharing thoughts on them, but there seems to be more contest than sharing here. I'm pretty sure continuing won't benefit you any, and I'm pretty sure there isn't an audience that would benefit from me responding to your points. But thanks for the discussion. If I didn't appreciate strong criticism, I would have some particular pride issues to work out. I do think that perhaps you aren't exposed to orthodox Christians on a regular basis, so you may not really appreciate how the Bible really works on people. If you're interested in more diversity in what information you're exposed to, I'd recommend finding some friends who think the Bible is fundamentally true. If that doesn't interest you, I understand. For what it's worth, I've prayed for good things in your future, and that God tries again to convince you that there are better things out there for you. Enjoy your weekend. |
I disagree.
> On the other hand, be suspicious of: hate, abuse, envy, boasting, arrogance, rudeness, insistence on one's own way, irritability, resentfulness, and celebration in wrongdoing.
I can live with that.
> It may seem odd to you, but a valid criticism of a Christian's ideas is pointing out where there out of line with these lists.
If there is anything odd, it's the idea that I should need a list to know what valid criticism of anyone is. I will criticize anyone who I perceive to be causing harm, whether it's on their list or anyone else's list or not. And maybe that you try to speak for all christians.
> A point delivered with irritability is a weak point for a Christian to make. And I guess you could extrapolate that to ideas and books... at least how they generally affect people. > > Edit: Regarding who has to prove God exists... I think nobody does. I don't have to prove it. Neither does He. I think it's better for you if you accept it, but that's your choice. You could ask God to prove Himself before you believe, I suppose.
Now you are being disingenuous. Just throwing out unsubstantiated claims and then refusing responsibility for substantiating them isn't how you conduct respectful conversations.
> But understand that He is the creator of the universe and He feels He has already gone above and beyond for us. But He has also done amazing things to prove to people that He cares for them.
Yet another bunch of unsubstantiated claims. I suspect you don't feel like providing evidence for these either?
> I don't see how it could hurt to ask.
That's my point. You don't see how your dogma causes harm, because you just assume that it can't cause harm. That's how much of the harm in this world is caused. Now ask yourself, how could it hurt if you spent the limited time of your life "asking" an imaginary entity for whatever? Like, how could it hurt to spend an hour every day asking superman for a relationship? Do you see at least the potential for harm there, in case your god might turn out to actually not be real?
> There are good answers to your specific objections and concerns, and I'm interested in sharing thoughts on them, but there seems to be more contest than sharing here. I'm pretty sure continuing won't benefit you any, and I'm pretty sure there isn't an audience that would benefit from me responding to your points.
Well, if you actually have good answers, I'd certainly be interested. But if you just repeat arguments that have long been refuted (and so far that's pretty much all you have done) and don't bother to first put in some effort to understand those well-documented refutations (just as I have done to understand those well-documented arguments of yours, which is how I happen to know why they don't hold up), I guess it's kindof pointless for me to just regurgitate them to you, which is why I gave you a reference to a good collection of explanations that could help you to get up to speed, so that you then maybe can avoid known-bad arguments in future discussions, and cut directly to good arguments where your "opponent" (for lack of a better word) doesn't just recite well-known refutations without having to engage their brains.
> But thanks for the discussion. If I didn't appreciate strong criticism, I would have some particular pride issues to work out.
Except you don't actually appreciate it, you just tell yourself that you do. That's an immunization strategy of your religion. If you appreciated it, you would try to actually understand the arguments.
> I do think that perhaps you aren't exposed to orthodox Christians on a regular basis, so you may not really appreciate how the Bible really works on people. If you're interested in more diversity in what information you're exposed to, I'd recommend finding some friends who think the Bible is fundamentally true. If that doesn't interest you, I understand.
I don't deny that the "bible [...] works on people", it sure does. There is just no evidence that there is anything supernatural about it, and the claims in it don't seem to be any more reliable than any other book, and often less so. What's difficult to find aren't people who think the bible is true--it's people who have any good evidence for it.
> For what it's worth, I've prayed for good things in your future, and that God tries again to convince you that there are better things out there for you.
Well, if you feel like wasting your precious time in this one life with that, I don't mind. But your chances of actually doing good would be higher if you used your time to do something with an observable effect in this world.
> Enjoy your weekend.
You too :-)