[yummyfajitas]

Climate science is basically an apocalyptic doom-religion. It follows the same scheme. For example, I just read a reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/3vsoe7/chri...) the other day and the post reminded me of climate science a lot. There is an apocalypse, some external information that you should rely on instead of you intuitive faculties because they are biased and unreliable, but if you follow the path of the leader you'll be saved.

And another problem is that nobody serious has ever rolled up their sleeves, went through and criticized the whole mess of their Bible (called Climate Science Papers), a massive collection of writings, interlinked thousand-fold in an intricate complex network. Simply because the people who could do this don't want to be criticized in the media.

Fortunately since the Climategate story came out and we could see the leadership's reaction, it was an eye-opener for many people. Still this movement is quite well-spread and gets linked to often by journalists, politicians, etc.

None of your critiques are remotely specific to lesswrong. All could be equally well applied to climate science or a variety of other things where I suspect you'd be unwilling to apply it.

[johann28]

If climate science was advocated by a single person without any formal qualification in climatology, physics, hydrology, Earth Science etc. it would be similar.

But Climate science is a lot less about an Apocalypse. Mainstream climate science isn't about a total wiping out of humanity but a few degrees of change in temperature, extreme weather, more deserts, floods etc., which are terrible catastrophes but nowhere near on the scale that Yudkowsky likes to dream up (evil robots destroying everything and torturing and extorting and creating myriads of simulations of simulations of you being tortured in the worst ways possible in various hypothetical, counterfactual scenarios to acausally motivate you to serve these evil overlords etc.)

Also, climate science doesn't ask you to "obviously" dismiss reputable fields and past sources. It's just a very bad analogy. The best defense of Singulitarianism is the "but what if you're wrong" kind of betting. Because their imagined doom scenario is so extremely unimaginably bad, they argue that they can get away with little proof, since multiplying the huge disaster with a little probability still gives a large expected risk. They like to say "shut up and multiply" as a slogan for this, i.e. multiply probability and outcome to get the expectation. He lays the groundwork and path for this such that if you gradually get into his system, he can take you in the woods without you noticing. It's no less than a panic-inducing mind virus.

And yeah, you can say I didn't disprove him with this. I don't want to. My main point is: don't start with his writings and don't recommend them to people who are uneducated in these topics. You'll do them a favor by recommending reputable sources.

[yummyfajitas]

Mainstream climate science isn't about a total wiping out of humanity but a few degrees of change in temperature, extreme weather, more deserts, floods etc.,...

You are sounding like a climate skeptic.

What does Yudkowsky ask you to "obviously dismiss"?

Near as I can tell, your only critique of Yudkowsky is that he asks you to consider various philosophical and scientific edge cases that are outside of the social mainstream, and are therefore somehow wrong in a way you refuse to discuss.

[Aljik]

Your writing implies you think Yudkowsky believes/promotes the Basilisk. Are you not aware he thinks that is nonsense?

[johann30]

I have no idea what he truly believes in and I don't even care too much. What I care about is the effects of his writings. Remember we are debating whether his writings are to be recommended to someone who is new to philosophy about science, algorithms, cognitive biases etc.

The Basilisk is an organic outgrowth from it. And it's just one of many. They follow naturally from the tenets of the religion, they aren't outliers or "bad apples".

[Aljik]

>I have no idea what he truly believes in and I don't even care too much.

It is relevant. Look what you wrote:

>Yudkowsky likes to dream up (evil robots destroying everything and torturing and extorting and creating myriads of simulations of simulations of you being tortured in the worst ways possible in various hypothetical, counterfactual scenarios to acausally motivate you to serve these evil overlords etc.)

Unless I am mistaken, this is a clear reference to Roko's basilisk. EXCEPT Yudkowsky didn't dream it up. Roko did.

Can you elaborate on your issues w/ the Basilisk? As far as I am concerned its just a thought experiment. If Yudkowsky had actually tried to get people to give him money or something via it you would have a good complaint... but he didn't.

[johann28]

> Unless I am mistaken, this is a clear reference to Roko's basilisk. EXCEPT Yudkowsky didn't dream it up. Roko did.

Correct, I was conflating things. But his unfriendly AI scenario is pretty bad too.

My issue with it is that it's a symptom of an over-confident belief system naturally leading people to such conclusions. And now I don't want to get into refuting it, it's been done numerous times to varying degrees. I think the whole underlying system is problematic, there is no superficial mistake in the reasoning, once you accept a few philosophical standpoints and value judgments that the reader is spoon-fed while reading his blog posts.

[yummyfajitas]

To repeat this idea with a different mood affiliation:

I have no idea what muslims truly believe and I don't even care too much. What I care about is the effects of their beliefs...Terrorism is an organic outgrowth from it. And it's just one of many...

I take it that if Donald Trump makes this claim, you'll support it?

[pron]

How are "muslims", over 1.5 billion people with wide ranging beliefs and practices analogous to one individual who leads a small group? If you were to apply this to a particular muslim with a following, who you believe has advanced particular beliefs with a negative effect, then the sentiment expressed by johann30 would make a lot of sense, and even the most heart-bleeding of liberals would agree.

I don't have enough information to agree or disagree with johann30 specific claim, and I can't comment to the negative effects he says he had witnessed on himself and others (all I know is that Yudkowsky is neither a philosopher nor an expert on the subject), but your analogy did not resemble his idea at all.

[dang]

Please stop trolling on HN.

[yummyfajitas]

Can you clarify what you mean by the word "trolling"? I'm honestly asking the question because I don't understand what you object to.

If I understand what the term means to you I can avoid that in the future.

[johann28]

Seems like I can't comment normally anymore due to downvotes or some other mechanism. So I quit the discussion now.

[tangled_zans]

I had the same issue and I've just seen this:

https://www.quora.com/Hacker-News-How-come-I-cant-reply-in-a...

I think that's a pretty good lesson from PG!

[sawwit]

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