[RightWingRabble]

Nationalism doesn't lead to wars, massacres and other oppression and brutality. That's tribalism leading to that. Tribalism is one of those built in human behaviors we have that we can't get rid of. People have tried with globalism, with cultural marxism, with communism. The pendulum always swings back toward tribalism because genetics is a powerful force. Nations are the people, not the dirt, as is pretty obvious to see after 3 decades of mass immigration.

If you want real danger, you should want to curb and reverse the mass immigration we're still seeing. History is very clear on this point; if immigration continues unabated, eventually the immigrants will become targets. Hopefully it's just expulsion that they're targeted for, but genocide isn't unheard of in these situations.

[hackuser]

The meaning of nationalism (and tribalism) is not clearly defined, at least not in this thread. I thought about that as I wrote my comment, but I decided I couldn't cover every contingency ...

Without disputing the definitions, I agree with some aspects of what you say, but I disagree about that there is some inevitable bad ending. Generally, as the U.S. shows, it turns out well.

The U.S. is filled with the descendents of immigrants who think of each other as 'Americans'. Today's nativists are the descendents of immigrants that suffered the same discrimination. A few examples: Ben Franklin (and his peers, AFIAK) openly disparaged German immigrants, Italian and Irish immigrants used to riot against each other ... generations later, does anyone care? I read a study that said by the third generation, 3% of immigrants spoke the language of their former country and 80% married outside their group (I might misremember the stats to a degree).

> The pendulum always swings back toward tribalism because genetics is a powerful force.

I don't think it's tied to genetics. People are tribalistic about all sorts of groups that aren't genetically related to each other, and over time the groupings change. I believe genetic studies show enormous diversity within groups.

[userulluipeste]

"The meaning of nationalism (and tribalism) is not clearly defined"

Wikipedia would have been helpful: "[Nationalism] can be expressed as a belief or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with or becoming attached to one's nation." "Tribalism is [...] a way of thinking or behaving in which people are more loyal to their tribe than to their friends, their country, or any other social group."

None of these in itself implies that it also has to bear a negative emotional charge of any kind. I think you're confusing nationalism/tribalism with xenophobia.

[PhasmaFelis]

> Nationalism doesn't lead to wars, massacres and other oppression and brutality. That's tribalism leading to that.

Could you explain the difference between nationalism and tribalism?

> If you want real danger, you should want to curb and reverse the mass immigration we're still seeing. History is very clear on this point; if immigration continues unabated, eventually the immigrants will become targets. Hopefully it's just expulsion that they're targeted for, but genocide isn't unheard of in these situations.

Are you saying that we should deport the immigrants for their own good?

[RightWingRabble]

> Could you explain the difference between nationalism and tribalism?

A tribe could be described as a people of common genetic ancestry. On the occasion they have an ancestral homeland, that's called a Nation. For example, the Germans have Germany, the French have france, etc. If you were to replace the German people with Syrians, for example, the nation of Germany would cease to exist. The Syrians living in Germany have no loyalty to the nation. The loyalty the Germans have for their nation (or their nationalism) is only a function of the fact that Germans live there and they feel that is their home.

> Are you saying that we should deport the immigrants for their own good?

Nothing makes a Tribe feel more fiercely nationalist than a perceived invasion from an outside group. That really triggers the deep seated need we all have to ensure our genes and our race survive. That means expelling the invaders, one way or the other. The Reconquista is a good example of an event that was somewhere in the middle. There were lots of wars, lots of deportations, but not an outright genocide.

[hackuser]

> A tribe could be described as a people of common genetic ancestry.

I'd agree that they share an ethnicity (depending on how that's defined!) but I think there is no genetic basis, and that studies have shown great genetic diversity within ethnicities.

There is no real rhyme or reason to how humans group themselves. It's not like they carefully review specifications and test solutions before they choose. It's on an emotional level.

[tim333]

>Nationalism doesn't lead to wars

I think doesn't always lead to wars might be more accurate. In history you see Germany at war with France more often than Germanic and Francophone tribal groups sparing.

[clock_tower]

Evolution is our friend here. Keep non-tribalism more adaptive than tribalism, hold out for a few centuries while rewarding non-tribalism and penalizing tribalism, and the problem will evolve away.