[Sanguinez]

There is a huge difference between "not valuing freedom" and "valuing advantage X more than freedom". This is not all or nothing. This is not a case of "you are either with us or against us".

Repeating "stupid" and "dumb" over and over will not make it real. They don't restrict anyone either, they just stick to their values.

[GHFigs]

For the third time, you're trying to twist this into something about how much I value freedom, rather than actually talking about the actual thing that Mozilla actually does, which is the thing I refer to as being a dumb move.

They don't restrict anyone either

They do. They have chosen to implement <video> in such a way that users are unable to use it in conjunction with any other format than Theora. Not because users asked for it, not because it's useful, but because they want to push Theora.

they just stick to their values

I'm not passing judgement on their values. I'm passing judgement on their actions.

[Sanguinez]

Their actions come from their values. And they happen to value an open web and free software. So yes, it is actually useful.

And then, how would you qualify apple by not supporting theora in safari? They are keeping their users from watching videos from wikipedia. You still end up with a big mess.

[GHFigs]

Their actions come from their values

Newsflash: everybody's do. That doesn't automatically excuse them from doing stupid things in the name of those values. This is why again and again I keep pointing to the fact that I am criticizing their actions and not their values. You keep assuming that the values that Mozilla espouses can lead to one and only one possible course of action and that that is automatically the right one. I am saying that this is not so, and I'm pointing to the fact that users are being harmed and no good is coming of it as a sign that it wasn't the right choice.

how would you qualify apple by not supporting theora in safari?

The difference is that with Safari you can install Theora on your system (http://www.xiph.org/quicktime/) and it works just fine in <video> and everywhere else (and yes, it works on Wikipedia.) Apple simply doesn't ship Theora which is a much more benign way of "not supporting" something than disabling it altogether. Mozilla, on the other hand, has specifically chosen to prevent users from using anything other than Theora in conjunction with <video>, and not because it's not possible to do it any other way.

[Sanguinez]

Then users shouldn't use patent encumbered formats. Simple as that. There already been enough mess by formats supported by browser X but not Y.

[GHFigs]

Then users shouldn't use patent encumbered formats.

Blaming the user is not a strategy the results in good software. I contend that it does much to hurt the cause it it supposed to promote. You're also blaming the user for something they can't control: the format of the content they're trying to view.

Moreover, it isn't simply a patent-encumbrance issue, as Mozilla's choice has been to equally block other patent-free formats. It's Theora or nothing. Read that again and then tell me it's all about freedom.

Simple as that.

It isn't, in fact. Most of the video content on the web today is in patent-encumbered formats, specifically h.264. You're saying that users should not want to continue to be able to view the content is already out there.

It is not the place of a web browser vendor to punish users for wanting to use the web normally. In fact, quite the opposite.

There already been enough mess by formats supported by browser X but not Y.

...and Mozilla is demonstrably perpetuating that mess by only supporting a format that nobody uses and nobody wants to use. Meanwhile all major operating systems currently support h.264 natively, all major video sites use h.264, and all other <video>-supporting browsers support h.264. If Mozilla wants to help clear the mess, they're doing exactly the wrong thing.

[Sanguinez]

This is still about an open web. Using gstreamer would just be passing the burden onto others without solving much. Users would be able to watch h264 videos, but they wouldn't be aware of patent issues and wouldn't care since it works for them.

I agree that ironically they could still use flash to access youtube (even though they eem to take all the votes for theora in consideration), but there are also big websites using theora such as dailymotion or wikipedia. But there is a huge differene between a html tag and a plug-in.