[javajosh]

In the ideal world, the people with the clearest and most honest understanding of the world win. Within a society, those are the people who get elected. Between societies, those are the ones that survive.

There is a very real distinction to be made between people who require proof for belief and those who don't. In this case, people believe that their security is proportional the the privacy they give up. That unfounded assertion, tacit in all conversations on this (even tacit in liberal conversations about it), needs to be clearly labelled as wrong and evil, and those who willfully promulgate it (like virtually all politicians in the US and Europe) need to be told: you are saying something that is wrong and evil, as bad as anything Hitler asserted about race and national power.

This isn't a joke, or a goof, or a HN thread thing. This is a very real, globe-spanning conflict that will define this Age. Governments by their control of violence can do anything they want, it is up to the people to ensure it's self-restraint--and if it stops restraining itself, it is the people's right to replace that government entirely. We are now transitioning from a government hiding behind secrecy and Byzantine legal structures to government boldly asserting it's right to know everything about everyone within it's borders. It was always going to be about security. And it was always a lie.

[bcoates]

People keep spreading stories about a secret government conspiracy to know everything and use that power for shady means, and in an uncertain world, that's kind of comforting.

The actual conspiracy is just a group of incompetents getting together to make a quick buck from the ambitious or the afraid. But just like the patent medicines sold by their 19th century counterparts, "Doesn't work" and "Doesn't hurt" aren't the same thing.

Actually creating a all-knowing, all-powerful security state would require resources and competence well beyond the capabilities of present-day western governments, but in trying they can leave devastation in their wake as the dangerous mistakes they make enable new and interesting kinds of abuse, crime, and fear.

[gotchange]

> People keep spreading stories about a secret government conspiracy to know everything and use that power for shady means, and in an uncertain world, that's kind of comforting.

Unfortunately, it is not comforting at all because we are not talking about one coherent group holding all the strings behind the scenes. No, there are many cabals fighting in the "shadow" government for domination and power and since they're above the law in theory and practice, it's really a scary scenario for all of us.

[javajosh]

Sorry, yeah, I guess I still vacillate between those two views (ignorance vs. evil - and what that implies about capability).

There is another possibility: the hubris of the geeks-cum-heroes at the NSA. They have a science-fictional desire to do the Batman surveillance trick (from Dark Knight Rises? I forget) and Save Us All From the Bad Guy. That's dumb, because Bad Guys statistically arise equally inside and outside government. Literally every programmer at the NSA should quit and go make a cool video game or something.