[potatolicious]

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic - it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction.

I would tread carefully on news like this - it's easy to read too much into it, and it's too easy to manipulate, kind of like blaming all communists because one of them set fire to a building.

[hh]

Are you kidding me? Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_gSasJPs1Y. Chinese Plain-Clothes Officials Block CNN Cameras With Umbrellas In Tienanmen Square. How low can the Chinese government goes? They operated like a gang, no less.

[potatolicious]

And how does this indicate that these hack attacks are sanctioned or originate from the Chinese government?

Nobody is saying the Chinese government isn't censor-happy and oppressive, but get a grip on yourself man. Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can. It's more than likely that a significant number of hacks coming out of China today are occurring out of people's own free will, not by the explicit order of the government.

[plinkplonk]

"Talk to some Chinese - particularly the young ones - and you will find a population very truly eager to attack the West in whatever way they can."

Why? I am genuinely curious. I can see why someone (say)in an Islamic society would want to attack the West, but why would a Chinese kid hate the West?

[potatolicious]

Yeah, the above "they're poor" explanation doesn't really hit the mark.

It's a combination of many things, some of which I will probably miss off the top of my head:

- Propaganda: The Chinese are educated to be very wary of Western influence. Western societies in media are often portrayed as disorganized and chaotic, so naturally there is aversion to Western ideas (though strangely, not Western products).

- Fear: There is a consistent belief (not unique to China) that America unduly uses its influence to exploit other nations for its own benefit. The education system encourages the attitude of "now it's our turn" with regards to their current economic boom. When Western countries do things like, say, discuss limitations on carbon emissions, the Chinese see this as deliberate sabotage of their economy fueled by jealousy of their success. There is a fairly prevalent belief that the US is out to "get" China, and that it's China's rightful turn to be the dominant global player.

- History: The Chinese have long proclaimed to have the richest history and was in fact the most powerful empire on Earth for significant periods of time through its history. Through nepotism and corruption the Qing dynasty fell to European conquest, and China was forced to accept extremely unfavourable surrender terms, and has basically been kicked around globally since then... until now. Think of China as the bullied kid with a grudge - now he's going to fuck you up, and there's not a thing you can do to convince him otherwise. There is definitely a lot of feelings of vengeance involved when it comes to Chinese antagonism of the West.

As a Chinese, I'm really, really terrified of China - not because they have a totalitarian regime, but because they have a totalitarian regime with popular support.

Also, there is a widespread belief that nobody will watch out for Chinese interests except the Chinese... so despite the imperfections of their government, many will defend it vehemently - because everyone else is out to get them.

[plinkplonk]

@potatolicious, Thank you that helped a lot

"Think of China as the bullied kid with a grudge - now he's going to fuck you up, and there's not a thing you can do to convince him otherwise. There is definitely a lot of feelings of vengeance involved when it comes to Chinese antagonism of the West."

Wow! Sounds like the world is in for interesting times, then!

"As a Chinese, I'm really, really terrified of China - not because they have a totalitarian regime, but because they have a totalitarian regime with popular support."

As an Indian I'm really really terrified of China because they are right next door and the last time we had a war we had our asses handed to us. ;-)

If China were a democracy, I'd probably go live there for a while. Sounds like a fascinating place and there's just enough of a cultural connection with India (wrt Buddhism and so on) so as not to make it a completely alien place.

[hh]

This is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. We Asian loves the west, especially American. I have never heard anyone hates the west like you've mentioned. Bottom line, China wants to be the center of the universe. They would do anything to score a point. They don't have systematically governance. That is why I call them a gang instead.

If they go to great length just to censure some minor stuff, what do you think they would not do?

[potatolicious]

There are a lot of varieties of Asian - which one are you? I'm basing all of the above off my experiences with the Chinese, particularly college-aged Chinese international students that I've had extensively dealings with in the past.

There is some selection bias here, but this is acknowledged: the Chinese regime doesn't enjoy a great deal of popular support from the working class (read: manual labor), but enjoys widespread support from educated intelligentsia (the sort that would send their kids overseas for education).

I've also surfed through Chinese social networks, and the amount of anti-American and anti-West media on them (and being passed around like LOLcat pics) is pretty alarming. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people on these networks are young, grew up without witnessing the atrocities of the Cultural Revolution, and are the direct beneficiaries of China's capitalism. Oh, they're educated to boot, which makes the whole deal just that much scarier.

[gscott]

If you are the Chinese kid making Barbie dolls all day long, wanting one but you can't afford one on your .10cent an hour salary you might hate the people who are going to enjoy those Barbie dolls too.

[plinkplonk]

That doesn't make too much sense. I live in India and there are a lot of poor people here, (poorer than the people in China). They don't really hate the west. They aspire to the West's living standards, sure.

I guess what I am trying to say is relative poverty can be a source of envy. But hate? Enough to delight in attacking the West?

[pyre]

> The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic

Maybe you mean the Han Chinese. Certainly the native Tibetans and the peoples in the Muslim/Islamic regions may not share this sentiment (Tibetan Buddhists and Muslims are considered 'terrorist religions.' IIRC, it's illegal to be Muslim in China and all new Tibetan Buddhist monks are required to become Party members).

[papersmith]

"IIRC, it's illegal to be Muslim in China and all new Tibetan Buddhist monks are required to become Party members."

Dude, the Muslim part is plain false. I lived in Xi'an, a city with a large population of Hui Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

I don't know where you heard about the Tibetan Buddhist required to join the communist party, but it just doesn't sound right. Joining the party is considered a privilege in China, you get all kinds of benefits, but mainly the ability to vote. I kinda doubt they would give this kind of political privilege to Tibetan monks.

[vorg]

"it would not surprise me at all if many of these attacks are being done without government sanction"

Every Chinese compsci student seems to know who to call if they ever crack into someplace useful.

[papersmith]

Depends on how you define nationalistic. The hundreds of thousands of students who protested at the Tiananmen Square could also be considered nationalistic in some sense of the words.

[potatolicious]

You really don't understand how the topology of the Chinese political landscape has changed since 1989 - the "new" regime has brought wealth to tens of millions, and the country has seen dramatic modernization in the past decade and half. Not to mention the majority of China's young student population grew up completely divorced from the brutality of the Cultural Revolution. Something like Tiananmen Square simply cannot happen again today, even if it were allowed, simply because you wouldn't find enough supporters.

Keep in mind that when Tiananmen Square occurred, China was still a Soviet-style backwater with numerous spectacular failures at modernization. People were frustrated, oppressed, and starving. Now they're just oppressed - and that makes a huge difference.

The Chinese are nationalistic in the sense that they will defend their government, however imperfect they perceive it to be, because the alternative is treasonous (i.e., to side with foreign interests and ideology).

This is something Westerners find difficult to understand - but is very much rooted deeply in Chinese culture.

[papersmith]

That's actually my point. "the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic" being too big of a blanket statement, since you are including the baby-boomers who protested all over the country in 1989, and older generations who spent their adulthood under Mao.

[mahmud]

The thing is, the Chinese are fiercely nationalistic

A quality they share with most nations on earth.