[tjogin]

Debugging a turing-complete full-fledged programming language is the same as debugging markup? Interesting.

I thought the whole point of Sass, the topic of this discussion, was to introduce more powerful programming concepts to CSS?

So which is it, is CSS already as powerful a tool as a programming language thus making Sass completely useless, or does it lack the capabilities of a real programming language, thus making it much easier for designers to use with proficiency?

[jlong]

Um, you are missing my point completely.

CSS is not a programming language.

However, when you are dealing with CSS related bugs in browsers a high level of determination and problem solving ability is required to get to the bottom of each bug. The same kind of determination is required to debug Ruby or Java or any other programming language.

So the jump from competent web designer to programmer is not as far as you might think. They actually require a similar skillset.

[tjogin]

Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain. Enjoying one of these tasks does not mean you enjoy the other, and certainly not that you're any good at it.

The reality is that most designers aren't also proficient programmers. And most programmers aren't also proficient designers. This is the cold hard truth that your Sass-pushing zealotry cannot overcome.

Most designers simply aren't keen to learn to program, because the two things are drastically different things.

[charlesr]

"Programming is a left-brain endeavor, designing utilizes the right side of the brain."

Sorry, that's a myth. Both engage both sides of the brain. Most of what we do involves both sides of the brain. There are plenty of books around busting the myth that 'some people are left brain and some people are right brained'. Programming involves much of what is associated with 'right brain thinking': leaps of intuition, random thoughts, synthesis, looking at the bigger picture. While 'designing' (by which I take you to mean 'aesthetic design'?) involves much of what is associated with 'left brain thinking': analytical, objective, rational, logic.

What many folk do not realise is that 'design' is mostly something technical that can be learned. It's a set of rules, guidelines, processes and techniques that can be taught and practised. It's not some magical, right-brain, talent you're born with, it is something that is learned, practised and honed.

Sass is, in my experience, no harder to learn than HTML or CSS. Much easier, in fact if you already know CSS. It's nowhere near as complex as, say, Javascript or PHP, which most web designers seem to be able to handle to some degree. If a web designer (as in someone who specialises in HTML, CSS, graphic design, typography, IA) finds it too hard or complex, they either need to practice more, or find another career, because they're going to be redundant pretty soon as CSS and HTML get more complex with the transition to HTML5 and CSS3.

[jlong]

I don't seem to be making any headway with you on this, so this will probably be my last reply on this thread. But I'm speaking as a professional web designer that has a programming background. I see a lot of correlation between the two.

If we were talking strictly design (as in art) your point would hold a little more weight with me, but we are talking about web design. The skills that are required here are not that different from the skills that are required by a programmer. One is very visual it is true, but both require strong troubleshooting skills.

I'm not sure about the whole left/right brain thing. I'm speaking from my experience of what it takes to be a good web designer.

Is programming strictly a right brain activity? I hear a lot of talk about beauty and design in programming circles today. Clearly it is not all cold crisp logic. You aspire towards beauty and function just as much as designers do.

[tjogin]

I know precisely what you mean. I'm just like you, well, almost. I'm a programmer who started in design. But we are exceptions — we are not the norm.

The norm is that programmers like to program and designers like to design. Most programmers suck at design, and most designers hate programming.

Sass is great for the relatively few of us who actually like to do both. But we are exceptions, not the norm, which is why Sass won't spell CSS's "demise" any time soon: most people who write CSS don't like to and don't want to program.

[jlong]

It sounds like we have both had very different experiences with other designers.

[tjogin]

This is exactly why you should never use your personal experience as an indicator of what the norm is. Instead you should observe the world — and in it designers design and programmers program, only rarely does one person enjoy both.

[nex3]

Most of the benefit of Sass lies in variables, mixins, and nesting. If there are any programming constructs, they're usually in the background, in library code. When there's debugging to be done, it's the same sort that's done for CSS: touching up styles and so forth. And in many ways Sass makes that sort of debugging much easier.