[themartorana]

Isn't it oddly adversarial to say that on the one hand, the government can cripple your ability to mount a private defense, but on the other your defense will come from that same prosecuting and asset-freezing government?

Haven't we time and again seen industry more willing to protect its benefactor?

[abfan1127]

however, the person is considered innocent until proven guilty, therefore those assets shouldn't be seized until such proof.

[eximius]

Tell that to victims of civil forfeiture who are never even charged.

[Natsu]

Two problems: the asserts are only frozen in this case. This is a fraud case, not a drug case, and they've not been subjected to civil asset forfeiture, so this doesn't touch on that.

The other is that if they can never freeze the assets, someone can simply spend or transfer all of their money after stealing it. If a thief has $5,000 and they steal $5,000, they can spend the stolen money and then claim the $5,000 they originally had is untouchable because they only spent stolen money.

[wavefunction]

How about some sort of middle-ground? An individual is accused of $x fraud or theft, $x of assets are frozen? That seems perfectly reasonable.

[lmm]

Did you read the article? They're not fighting the freezing of the $45m of alleged proceeds of fraud, only the $15m of unrelated assets. The government argument is that those would be payable as a fine upon convicting so they don't want that money transferred out of the country.

[abfan1127]

you are still assuming that the thief is guilty.

[Natsu]

Even you are calling that fictitious entity a "thief" rather than an "alleged thief." But it's just a character in a story, not a real person, nor does it represent anyone.

It's normal to make that part of a story to see how the law would play out in various cases. The point of that has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, it's to point out that the outcome of the desired ruling is simply to reward people for spending stolen money. This is a perfectly normal thing that is often used when discussing laws. [1]

This is different from saying that about the actual people being accused. This context is important. Otherwise one is failing to separate reality and fantasy.

[1] Many examples can be found here: http://lawcomic.net/ It's written by an actual lawyer: http://burneylawfirm.com/Firm/

[themartorana]

Yes, thank you. I came back here to edit my previous comment to ask whether or not asset forfeiture is anything but the presumption of guilt. I get the argument about assets being contested and therefore should be frozen, but they're being frozen by the prosecuting party, and therefore isn't so unbiased.

[Natsu]

That's a separate argument for a more robust and effective public defender's office. This is arguing that there's a right to obtain a counsel of choice, which is an argument that the justices said they have already rejected in oral argument [1]. The petitioner in this case is being represented by Howard Srebnick: http://www.royblack.com/attorneys/Howard/Srebnick/ and not a public defender.

[1] http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcri...

"JUSTICE KAGAN: I might just be repeating myself, but ­­[...] I thought that, again, that distinction was the one specifically rejected in Monsanto."