[throwaway29]

I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than shit.

I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are.

That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.

[shas3]

There is a fundamental fallacy here, that is all too common. You think that busting your butt is something that you only do during your education. It is not. "started from the bottom now we're here" is as common a credo on the corporate ladder as it is in the education system. There are numerous CEOs and founders who were academic duds who slogged hard and used guile and intelligence to get to the top. I am not saying you won't be that way at work, but just at a certain stage we all hold the belief that education is the only indicator of success and hard work.

[kamaal]

Its even more common among Indians, where people tend to equate good education/university/grades as life long right/entitlement to a good life, even if they are actually bad at work. There is also an immense social pride/pressure associated with foreign visits, citizenship in the US etc- Which causes these kinds of issues.

Also one needs to step out of their fantasy chambers and look at the brutal financial reality of life, which they sooner or later have to face. And work their lives from there. Else soon, the very same intelligent people will complain how a butcher down the street who doesn't know any math beyond basic arithmetic got more richer than a Algorithm expert on TopCoder. And cry that life is 'unfair'.

[kamaal]

I get it. So now repeat the same intensity of effort you applied in your education, in you your work. The results will follow. And please don't ever think you are some precious snowflake because of your university or grades. Things don't work that way in the real world and people learn it the hard way as they age.

>>Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.

I judge love towards one's work by commitment and what they are ready to do to get there and not by their ability to memorize trivia. On any given day I will hire a TCS/Infosys services guy with 3 years of experience than a M.S or even a Phd, with no experience- Very simply because, that guy would have lived and breathed struggles under tough budgets and demanding timelines. People with such a background can generally learn and do anything. When compared to graduates who expect special things to happen to them because of their marksheet and university.

Either way, India or US. I can assure you- you are going to see ordinary hard working people will get far ahead of most engineers because of a strong work ethic. This should not surprise you even in time to come. The same applies to US too, don't expect basic things like these to change by changing countries.

You may go to the US get a job. But you might find a Indian cab driver after a few years far ahead of you financially.

[abc_lisper]

I think you are being a little unfair to throwaway29. He specifically talks about the beauty and the joy of CS, which I think is an excellent attitude.

And throwaway29, you seem to argue that it is unfair to you that you could top your university but not get a H-1B. Here's my personal take on it. It is going to be a little harsh.

- First things first, Yeah, it is unfair to you. No question about it. A person of modest means has less chances to go ahead in life. Let not the hopefuls with rose colored glasses tell you life is going to be fair. That if you work hard, magic happens..There is just as much truth to it as flipping a coin. Look around. There are a lot of people who were born with a silver spoon, inherited property that is "now" worth a lot of money. And there are people who cannot seem to lift themselves out of their harsh life. There isn't a rule book to follow that guarantees anything.

- The sharp sting of pain you may feel right now is because of your social conditioning; that you were led to believe that it ain't so, that hard work works! It may or may not. No body knows, nor anybody is responsible nor will anybody will hold themselves accountable because they said so.

- Now that we have established that, I want you to really think why you want to go the US. Make money, learn or have a comfortable life? As Kamaal said, you are less likely to become rich as an engineer. If you wanted comfortable life, define for yourself what comfort is. There are downsides to being in the US. I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that.

- Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here. There you don't have feel envious about your H-1B brethren. They are totally missing out on it. They are like cattle in a castle, who know no different, nor feel any difference. They are going to pee and poop on the throne without realizing it, just like cattle. There are blindingly smart people here. If you don't get to work with some of them I feel you missed out the best thing that you can get by living here.

TL;DR - There are negatives and positives about living in the US. Think carefully if you really want to be here. And don't expend energy feeling bad about yourself. Life is finite, harsh and unfair.

[throwaway29]

I think you really got to the heart of what I felt! I don't care about the money or any of those things. Anyone who has already spent 8 years on a MS and a PhD probably knows that!

What I see is that even in today's MOOC/highly-connected world, I'm missing out on interacting/working with the brightest minds in the world, who all seem to be currently concentrated in the US. I can only go so far by watching their talks online, reading their research papers or studying their code. I wish to live/work in that environment for at least a few years.

Not everyone can get everything they want, I get that. But then, I see folks who are neither the best nor the brightest nor the most hard working getting to the US by gaming the system and that hurts.

PS: This is from the point-of-view of a foreigner from a less privileged background. There is a whole other gamut of concerns of US citizens about their own jobs, assimilation, social concerns and all that and I am aware of that.

[abc_lisper]

>> I see folks who are neither the best nor the brightest nor the most hard working getting to the US by gaming the system and that hurts.

All I can say is be patient. If it makes you feel any better, Einstein wasn't able to get a job out of school. MF* Einstein.. You know what he did? He felt bad for himself! Chew on that. Source: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Holes-Time-Warps-Commonwealth/dp... (See pages 59-61 in book preview)

The system has been gamed long before I came here in 02. And I don't think people in upper levels of Government are oblivious to it. It works for them now, so they are not going to look too closely there.

I have seen Americans from MIT driving a dinky car, while my friend who could not add two numbers own a 5 series(10 years ago, mind you). As I said, it isn't fair. As they say, keep your calm, focus and carry on.

[annasaru]

If you want to be intellectual there is a good chance you will be lonely here , too - though it depends. Indians are notorious for resting on their laurels - in this case, merely landing in USA qualifies as one. I am willing to bet your fires will be much tamer once you make it to these shores - but I wish you good luck , because at least you have that fire. When I meet Indians here (and I am one too) its seriously underwhelming - what they consider cool/revolutionary/intellectual. In a sense, the gamers of the system escaped overseas, and for the good of India, the best is left behind (sounds crazy for some reason).

The fact that intellectual activity seems to be relatively lacking in India is sad to read, and confirms my subjective opinion.

I can understand your sense of intellectual loneliness. Indians worship Saraswati (the goddess of learning), but will do anything not to learn and be intellectually curious. Behold the Hindu nation. The current wave of 'culture' sweeping through India will definitely not improve any of this.

[throwaway29]

Most Indians are like that, I've seen that here in Europe too. I attend tech meetups and paper study groups regularly and only friend with people I admire. Race doesn't matter to me. And yes, usually they are not Indian anyway.

[abc_lisper]

>>>Indians worship Saraswati (the goddess of learning), but will do anything not to learn and be intellectually curious. Behold the Hindu nation.

ROFL. Hahahah... Well said

[kamaal]

The whole idea of getting rich in the US is true if and only if, you think of earning in the US and going back to India. From the perspective of starting a life altogether from a scratch in the US, its a uphill, may be a 'unfair' battle to even start with. Because you will spend more than two decades just to 'settle down' with a house and family, this if you start at an average age of 25-30. You will be 50 to just settle in. In India, your peers would be contemplating retirement(or would have retired) post wrapping the remaining responsibilities by that time. And you would just be starting in the US. And this is just the beginning, after all this, life isn't rosy after all. You still have to worry about health care expenses, your kids will likely not get good college education and end up working $30-$40K a month. Or worse graduate out with a college debt which will take a good part of their remaining lives to pay. Your own retirement will be expensive, you will staring at health care expenses of old age, you will have mortgage to pay and without any social circle, network or family like in India. You will be more lonely, more in need of money, more isolated than ever. And don't expect your kids to reciprocate all those good old Indian values to you then.

But that is the choice everyone has to make. If you are ready to put in that kind of struggle in the US. Any similar amount of struggle in India will put you a lot farther than you would ever reach in the US.

This is my humble evaluation of Indian life in US. Scary, but true for almost every one I met there.

>>I have been here for 13 years now. No body talks about it, but you will feel lonely here. If you are one of "us" introverted types, who will keep to themselves, buddy, I have news for you. It is going to be very harsh. That loneliness will affect the way you think. Also, I haven't lit a Diwali cracker in all these years. You got to think about that.

Haven't suffered for 13 years like you do. But have worked for short periods of time in the US. I can attest to this. And I understand what you are going through.

>>Instead, if you want to learn things, there ain't a place like US anywhere. Concepts, things, ideas that seem unreachable are routinely done by people here.

Seriously? If you have to come to a new country to learn or else you can't then coming to US will barely help you. You should learn and do new things where ever you are.

[abc_lisper]

>> Because you will spend more than two decades just to 'settle down' with a house and family, this if you start at an average age of 25-30. You will be 50 to just settle in

True if living in bay area or NY. Housing is not very expensive elsewhere. Hell, it is cheaper (for what you get) than most cities in India.

>> Haven't suffered for 13 years like you do. But have worked for short periods of time in the US. I can attest to this. And I understand what you are going through.

Hey, it's not all bad. It is one side of a coin. On the positive side I have a large bookshelf, reading stuff in all that time!

>> Seriously? If you have to come to a new country to learn or else you can't then coming to US will barely help you. You should learn and do new things where ever you are.

Um. I learn most things by myself - from books. I think there is a lot of value in working with really smart people. It has expanded my perspective.