[sz4kerto]

:) 400 sqf with two kids might be a drama for people in the US but it is completely normal in other places of the world, even including the EU. It's not comfortable, but 600-700 sqf is completely usual for families in where I live (an apartment like that costs around 15-20 times the average yearly salary).

EDIT: typo, I meant sqf and not sqm.

[x43b]

"400 sqm with two kids might be a drama for people in the US"

400 square feet (~37 m^2)

No need to turn this into another stereotyping Europe vs US issue. I agree 37 m^2 is plenty of room for some people, not for others, regardless of where you are from.

[goodJobWalrus]

> No need to turn this into another stereotyping Europe vs US issue

But it is kind of true that Americans are extremely melodramatic about this stuff. 800 sqft house is often referred as a "tiny house" in American media. In the UK (for example) this is an average house size.

[serge2k]

The US is over 10 times larger than the UK. Guess what, tons of land leads to different expectations. I don't understand why Europeans seem to like acting condescending about this stuff?

[goodJobWalrus]

> The US is over 10 times larger than the UK. Guess what, tons of land leads to different expectations.

I'm not sure it's just that, it's also I think, that Americans find it acceptable to live in suburbs. If everyone tried to live in the city centers (like they do in nyc or SF), small places would also be the norm.

[douche]

Why would you want to live in a city center, when you could have 40 acres of good land in the country for the same money, or less?

Suburbs are a compromise, where you get a little of column A (room enough for decent living) and a little column B (urban wages and access to capital), which equals a lot of column C (long, shitty commutes).

[goodJobWalrus]

> Why would you want to live in a city center

Well, one reason would be:

> long, shitty commutes

another is that some people prefer urban life.

I bet you'd be surprised to hear that in some countries people actually prefer to live in apartments to houses.When I ask why, they often state the fact that it is much less work to upkeep an apartment, so I guess that would be another reason. I personally understand why would some kid from the midwestern suburbs want to live in nyc, even if it means a much lower standard of living.

But in reality I think it really is purely cultural, people prefer what people like them around them prefer. People in the US were living in the cities as well before the "white flight", so at some point, urban middle class families were also the norm.

[serge2k]

> it's also I think, that Americans find it acceptable to live in suburbs

Guess what, tons of land leads to different expectations

[mikerichards]

Obviously it sucks, but the Europeans have to justify it because they can't admit its much better in the US when it comes to housing.

[Turing_Machine]

It's not just Europeans. I remember a conversation years ago where people from New York City were making fun of how "unrealistic" the Roseanne TV show was, "because people that poor couldn't possibly afford that house". Never mind that the show was set in a small Midwestern town, and small Midwestern towns are, in fact, chock-full of houses very similar to the one on the show, which are, in fact, occupied by working-class people.

Europeans, New Yorkers, and (increasingly) people from the Bay Area think that paying forty billion dollars a month to live in a closet is normal. It is not.

[Turing_Machine]

More like 40 times (3.8 million square miles compared to 94,000 square miles). The UK is smaller than Oregon.

[serge2k]

I think I switched one to miles and then dropped a zero.

I should probably return that math degree :/

[pjc50]

It is now, it wasn't always so: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398714/The-incredib...

(see yesterday's discussion about rubbish buildings)

[goodJobWalrus]

Yes, it is definitely a consequence of suburbanization of America.

[sz4kerto]

I meant square feet, sorry. I wanted to hightlight that the 'normal' or 'acceptable' size of private space varies hugely between regions. You can call that stereotyping, but we can also just call them cultural differences.

[moonchrome]

>400 sqm

You mean 40 m^2 ? 400 m^2 is a big house :D In that case I can agree - in my country (Croatia) ~40-60 m^2 is the norm for family apartment. Also interesting - huge apartments (>100 m^2) are nowhere near to being proportionally expensive (except on the top end) because people can't afford them - eg. they might be double in size but only 1/2 more in price.

[dogma1138]

While the average size of housing in the UK went down considerably the average 3 bed room flat is still 950sqft, land attached houses are on average 25% larger than flat with the same number of bedrooms not counting external land area like balconies and yards.

People need their space while it's true that there might be some "romantic" aspects to small housing the disadvantages are quite noticeable there are plenty of adverse physical and mental health effects when you live in smaller spaces, from asthma to mental stress and social friction that can increase the likelihood of divorces and breakups.

I live with my GF for 6 years and I would never ever live in an apartment with less than 2 bedrooms, people need their space, if you have a fight it's good to have a place to go and just cool down and not continuously get annoyed at the person, having a guest bedroom/office is also quite good for that time where you under allot of stress at work or just having a bad day and need to finish some things without being disturbed.

And while It's perfectly fine to say to your partner "look, I'm having a rough day and I need to be alone" it's just much better when you don't have too, when you know you can sit down some where and just relax.

Having larger space also gives people privacy which even in a relationship is very important if the 2nd bedroom door is closed my GF knows to knock, if our bedroom door is closed I know to knock. And before some one makes jokes about it no we don't expect to catch one of us with the mailperson in there but she might be having a private call with her parents or doctor, she might be planning a surprise and i can do the same.

And while you can do those things even without having an extra room by juggling your schedule the fact that you don't need too adds quite a bit of relief, I've seen other couples having issues while living in small apartments from having to lock yourself in the bathroom after a fight to having to make personal calls from it or worse have to say "hon, I need to make a call so I'm going out for a few" which is just uncomfortable for both people because even in a trusting relationship having a private call inside the house gives the added assurance that it's probably not that, while when you need to go out to make it there might be some fears gowning at your partner even if they are completely subconscious they are still there.

People need their space,calling it a luxury and that people in "Insert European, 2nd world, 3rd world country here" are living in small spaces is not true, because in many of them the overall living space tends to be much much bigger than what people would imagine, especially when you count in communal and open spaces.