[tmsam]

So, after "[announcing] $7.67 million in fresh funding... TinyOwl was reportedly offering post-dated checks to [the laid off employees], which concerned them as previously laid-off employees had yet to receive their payment." And we're supposed to feel bad for the guy?

[antidamage]

Indian employees have a long history of being abused and taken advantage of to the point of actual slave labour, a lot of the time by other Indian people. If they're based in another country they frequently hold on to their employee's passports so that they become virtual prisoners.

This guy should lose his funding, at the least for following this pattern of behaviour and choosing to exploit the local economy by paying his workers well below what would be considered a reasonable wage anywhere else.

[thedesihobbit]

You must consider a few things. India didnt have a lot of private organizations to work for before the 80s. And most of the youth are second generation college educated. At least the ones you're reading about.

Post Independence in 1947, govt jobs have been held in very high regard and no one gets fired from those jobs. They're mostly patronage.

Getting fired is a concept is still a new concept for most. People don't get fired, they're asked to resign. Even labour laws haven't been updated with the times. You can hire, but can't fire.

Also, people feel entitled to job security here and have not experienced a single recession in the last 30 years.

You must understand, Tiny Owl pays very well. Relatively. People with six months of managerial experience are getting paid $40,000. That's a lot here. It takes 8-10 years to get to that pay in regular large organizations.

But where they went wrong: 1. Hiring one bad apple who encouraged others to gang up on the founder. This is no way to resolve a professional dispute.

2. Not anticipating redundancy in positions well in advance, and communicating and disclosing the risks. Perhaps those jobs could have had a built in expiry and conditional renewal clause in their contracts.

But had they been growing as they did earlier this year, there would not have been any redundancy. The problem was credit dried up and competition became too fierce.

[balladeer]

There's a lot of inconsistencies here in your comment and a lot of deliberate omissions.

> India didnt have a lot of private organizations to work for before the 80s.

A good chunk of our planet didn't have that prior to 80s, not just India.

> Post Independence in 1947, govt jobs have been held in very high regard and no one gets fired from those jobs. They're mostly patronage.

Nothing changed in this regard.

And, no

> People with six months of managerial experience are getting paid $40,000

is an exception and not a norm. Your comment makes it look like, it's the norm here. I work in one of the blue eyes Indian startups (which translates to yes, it's burning money like most of the Indian startups but has more hope riding on it than the others) and I see these salary figures from up close.

What TinyOwl's founder(s) did is very simple - fraud! That's why they were held hostage knowing that being moneybags they would be untouchable once they are out and they (the employees) would probably never get their wages. You didn't even mention this issue in your comment. Or are you deliberately trying to spin the story? Is it a PR attempt, considering the age of your account? Anyway, that's another debate.

Also, the people holding the founder hostage were not at all those "management graduates" with that kind of salaries. They were the people who were kind of making ends meet, of course relatively speaking. They saw they were being cheated and took matters in their own hands, which, IMHO, even though illegal was/is the most effective way here.

What I have noticed in Indian startups (where I work included and maybe this is how it is worldwide), the founders wants quick numbers - by the hook, or by the crook. Well, the difference is in the west (US/EU) there's the law and the watchdogs who bring the crooks to the book, in India everything has a price and you can buy it if you can pay including the law and the courts. So that's there.

[thedesihobbit]

Haha. I agree, my previous answer doesn't come across as consistent. But I was typing from an app I recently started using and I didn't know where the edit button was. It might explain the age of my account too. I just discovered this site.

The central point I was trying to make in my reply was that getting fired (or being a college dropout or bankrupt) is a huge social stigma. It's a relic, in my opinion, of the pre-liberalization times.

"A good chunk of our planet didn't have that prior to 80s, not just India." This is plain wrong. It was hard to open new business because of lack of cheap credit and license permit system. Most of the developed world had systems in place for half a century before we had them. We didn't have banks, we relied on funds from friends and family, or the shadow banking system that is so prominent in Gujarati and Marwari communities. We didn't have the economic freedom to start large organizations, and those who could, were the elite families who had access, and stranglehold over the govt. They had the power and connections to use their levers in govt to acquire licenses and contracts. Which might explain why we have most number of inherited billionaires in the richest Indians list.

Ok, so why is this history relevant? Getting laid off as a concept hasn't seeped in the public psyche yet. Because it a huge social stigma and because for many working for corporate is recent experience. There weren't many to speak of. Add to that, there hasn't been a single recession.

".. they (the employees) would probably never get their wages." Do you really think the founders would not pay? In this age where the smallest stories can get wide attention, I don't think they can ever get away with something like this.

So what is the dispute about? 1. On the surface, about timing of payment. For which they can work out a resolution, but ganging up on anyone is not a good way to resolve issues. Employees aren't that powerless, that they have to resort to physical means - it is not the most effective means. Internet and sites like Twitter has leveled the field a little for everyone. If ganging up is the most effective means to deal with this, then it is mostly a lack of imagination on the part of those employees.

2. At the core, about getting fired. Their anger is about getting fired. Founders have handled it ineptly. If their jobs became redundant because of automation of orders, the firm should have set the expectations right from the start. They certainly shouldn't have laid them off in a sudden move.

Also, what I think, from a plain econ 101 pov, is that harder we make firing, slower hiring becomes - because vacancies won't open easily, and more difficult is it to get hired into good jobs. Hiring and firing should be easy - determined solely by economic rationalie. The more efficient labour market is, the better off everyone is.

My only point is that ganging up is no solution - which they did because of the emotive issue. In the long run, it clips the wings of the individual.

[chrisbennet]

"My only point is that ganging up is no solution - which they did because of the emotive issue. In the long run, it clips the wings of the individual."

While "ganging up is no solution" might make sense if there were alternatives, in this case, it seems likely that "ganging up" was their only chance of getting paid. It seems like the police in this case, saw the unfairness of it and sided with the workers.

[thedesihobbit]

Given the media attention startups are now getting in India, the contigency of not getting paid highly unlikely. If the company was insolvent, then perhaps. But in this case they secured $8mm. If the company defaults on their dues, the story of startups being mythical and not value creating entities would blow in the media.

As far as the police is concerned, they are highly inept, dysfunctional, and enjoy discretionary powers. Most people don't trust them or their judgment, and wish they never have to deal with the police.

[cpeterso]

> If they're based in another country they frequently hold on to their employee's passports so that they become virtual prisoners.

This sounds uncannily like H-1B visas. :(

[knight17]

This happens in middle east countries a lot, and applies to many white collar workers too. Unless you are in a really good company/position the employer will keep your passport.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/22/abu-dhabi-migra...

[tn13]

There is no such history in India. Please show evidence. India is a super poor country which means far too many people fighting for any minor job which does not amount to slavery.

Indian laws are outright crazy and favor labor and not the employer in all cases. One of the so called "reform" that current government is doing is to provide an exit option for failed businesses.

[tn13]

I don't think there is anything wrong here. Generally if you resign or leave you do not get the immediately salary in India. You receive it with what they call final settlement. It might be 30 to 90 days later.

But in either case the point here is that India does not have a working judiciary that can enforce contracts and hence people take law into their hand which is wrong even if the co-founder was at err.

Imagine these employees had to go to court to get their due. My uncle is fighting a similar case for last 32 years.

Check what happened to this mailman who was fired by postal department accusing him of stealing Rs 50 (80 cents). The case took 30 years and eventually reached Supreme Court.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/After-29-years-man-...

[knight17]

If India could fix its court system half the problems are over. You need to have someone to complain to and get it remedied and that someone takes 10+ years for even routine matters like land(partition) disputes. It is not a good sign. No one will even bother questioning people flouting rules, and when no one is there to question them the rule flouters continue to subvert the law.

Like other Indian institutions, judiciary too is corrupt (but I don't see it represented as such in the media) at the lower levels.

[tn13]

Court system is incompetent because of constitution. Indian constitution is ridiculously complex lengthy and takes a very "law to fix everything" stand compared to something like American constitution which places liberty of individuals at core.

Courts waste a lot of time on technicality and morality rather than pure pragmatism and sense of justice. For example a murder in India is not just a murder. Depending on the gender, age, reasons, motives there are at least 45 different laws that can be applied. Murder out of religious superstition would warrant a totally different legal approach than say murder in domestic abuse because at core the court is not looking at it as violation of person's right to life.