Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by lsc 3884 days ago
>In a country that looks down upon unions and guild-like structures meant to protect their workers, you'll never have enough people who trust apprenticeships.

You are associating two things that have gone together in the past (guild-like systems and apprenticeships) - that don't necessarily need to go together. I am, well, very American in my personal attitudes towards unions. (Okay, maybe I'm a little more tolerant; I don't have a problem with unions in general, I just know they aren't for my personality.)

I've worked in the field for the last 20 years without a degree, and I've been educated, largely, by things that could be called apprenticeships or internships; jobs where I got paid little to do IT work or programming, usually with some, but not very much supervision. Sometimes it was an official-ish internship, sometimes they just wanted an IT guy and didn't want to pay more than minimum wage. I personally didn't see too much difference between the two types of jobs. It was pretty great socially, too; I'd credit it with being one of the major forces that got me out of high school without physical harm or a record. It was really neat being a 16 year old kid who everyone treated like, well, a 16 year old kid (meaning some species of especially disgusting mud) - and then to go to work for three hours a day in an office where nobody else was below 45, where they treated me as a human; a human who could do adult work.

From the age of fifteen I worked at a local computer store, then later some county offices... by the time I got out of high school (in '97, and yes, I know just how lucky I got) I had just a few more months of low-paying work (phone tech support, that time) before I got my first programming gig.

Just because of my personality at the time, I don't think I could have functioned in an official union setting. It took me more than a decade before I could accept that sometimes you need to follow rules that you disagree with, and sometimes... sometimes when you learn more, you start to agree with those rules. I mean, I guess that's what most people do in college, learn how to "play the system" - But the capitalist free-for-all worked really, really well for me; I didn't have to play the system. I could do my work, tell my boss what I thought, and if that caused enough problems, I could get another job.

I'm not saying that it's the best system for everyone; just that it worked really well for me... and there's no way I would have made it in an organization with standards and rules like a union, and unions have very different values; To this day, the idea of working at the same place for a decade seems really weird to me. Some of this, I'm sure, has to do with the fact that I came of age during the first dot-com, and I know how much "loyalty" you are going to get from the company you work for... but some of this is that I really do value the freedom of being able to walk, with two weeks notice, of course, with almost no consequences.

Now, I do see some benefits of unions; in airlines, my understanding is that they've been able to capture a lot of the value (for the workers) that would otherwise have been profits for shareholders. This is not happening in the computer industry. Sure, we get paid pretty great compared to plumbers or mechanics or what have you (I mean, plumbers or mechanics who don't own a company) but compared to the industries we enable... we capture a pretty small portion of that value in terms of salary.

Still, I do really well in the "perceived merit" system we have now, even though all my statistics are terrible or non-existent. No certifications, no degrees, lots of time as a contractor, I've run my own business, etc, etc, - I think like so many others in the computer industry, I feel like a more objective scale is going to rate me less highly than the current system, and I have no evidence that a union could, in fact, obtain more of the surplus value for the workers.