[exprx]

I sense unwarranted criticism here – it's not like the ups and downs of BitCoin are going to affect a major economy any time soon (or ever).

It's more a good thing there's this new game speculators can play; even if someone games the system, it isn't going to affect anything of value (e.g. a company producing something of value).

It's not like BitCoin is ever going to be a major currency, or a real currency, really. The distribution of it is even more skewed, and artificially so, than that of any real currency. (And no, it isn't analogous to early investors in a business.)

[necessity]

Btc is as real a currency as it gets, I bought VPSs with it just like I have bought them by unsafer payment methods in the past (supplying credit card info). Although more common in the trading of digital commodities, you can buy physical goods such as clothes and pizza with it, depending where you live. It just doesn't enjoy widespread adoption outside the digital world yet.

[vectorpush]

> I bought VPSs with it

Wow! A VPS! Something that 99% of the population has no use for. How about paying rent, medical bills, utilities, phone bill, groceries, tuition, gas, car payment, car insurance, car maintenance, tolls, daycare, taxes... you know, the kind of things that real people actually care about.

> just like I have bought them by unsafer payment methods in the past

Bitcoin is by far the most unsafe method of payment for 99% of the population. Credit cards offer comprehensive fraud protection; bitcoin offers zero protection and zero recourse if your money is stolen or lost due to a crash/virus/hack/forgot to backup my wallet before formatting (and when this happens, the user is always blamed, duh, you should have bought a trezor!). With a credit card none of this happens, and if money is somehow stolen from your credit card, the card is quickly deactivated and the victim is fully reimbursed for any fraudulent charges.

This straight up LIE about the safety of bitcoin relative to credit cards is infuriating.

[necessity]

I guess you missed the "it just doesn't enjoy widespread adoption outside the digital world yet" part. Suggested reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

>bitcoin offers zero protection and zero recourse if your money is stolen or lost due to a crash/virus/hack/forgot to backup my wallet before formatting (and when this happens, the user is always blamed, duh, you should have bought a trezor!)

That has nothing to do with Bitcoin, but with the user habits and possibly his operating system choice. If you go out taking pictures of your credit card and posting on Twitter (as a lot of people do), don't check your account balance often (as a lot of people do) and constantly let strangers have your credit card info (as a lot of people do online) then you'd say that's an issue with credit cards? No, it's an issue with the person's habits.

>With a credit card none of this happens, and if money is somehow stolen from your credit card, the card is quickly deactivated and the victim is fully reimbursed for any fraudulent charges.

That is by design, as it avoids several issues* with money held or processed by banks or any other institution. It's a trade off, sure, but when it comes to my money I rather trust myself to keep sane habits than trust the payment processing website, the bank AND the gov. not to screw me.

* It can't be stolen nor lost if properly stored, unlike the info you must supply when purchasing with credit card (see Ashley Madison and others). Nor can you have your account frozen, like when buying with Paypal or wire transfer (if the bank or gov. find it suspicious), nor are there chargebacks in case you are a seller (if you wait the appropriate number of confirmations)...

[vectorpush]

> I guess you missed the "it just doesn't enjoy widespread adoption outside the digital world yet" part

Nah, I didn't miss it, I just don't think it matters. It's like saying "my solar powered car is as real as it gets, just yesterday I drove it down the block, it just doesn't enjoy more than a 10 mile range". Well ok... then it's not as real as it gets, it's a toy and not very practical since it can't be used to get to work, school, hospital etc.

> That has nothing to do with Bitcoin, but with the user habits and possibly his operating system choice.

In practice it has everything to do with bitcoin since permanent loss of funds is only a risk with bitcoin. Those behaviors you describe are not analogous to the problems of bitcoin. Just storing money as bitcoin puts it at risk of permanent loss. If you take out 100 credit cards and never check your balance you are still covered for every conceivable fraud scenario (and in many situations the bank will tell you that you've been a victim before you even realize it). With bitcoin you are never covered regardless of your vigilance or best practices. You can be an expert user and simply make a typo and send your money to the wrong address and then you're screwed. The general public doesn't have the time, patience, or technical skills to decide which OS is the most secure for storing money, especially when bitcoin itself doesn't actually provide any novel benefits for most people.

> It's a trade off, sure, but when it comes to my money I rather trust myself to keep sane habits than trust the payment processing website, the bank AND the gov. not to screw me.

That's your right and I'm glad bitcoin exists for you, but it's simply wrong to suggest that bitcoin is safer, it's not. If you trust yourself to keep your bitcoin secure, more power to you, but statistically speaking your money is still less safe as bitcoin than as a bank balance. It's like saying that driving your motorcycle cross country is safer than flying because you trust yourself not to crash. I'm happy that you can be your own bank and I think that it's cool as hell that this is possible because of an emergent econony based on open source software, but bitcoin is not practical, useful, and least of all safe for most people.

[aianus]

> Credit cards offer comprehensive fraud protection; bitcoin offers zero protection and zero recourse if your money is stolen or lost

None of that shit helps me when I can't buy what I want because the merchant is in the U.S., my credit card is issued in Canada, and my shipping address is in Thailand.

I don't care about other people, I should be able to buy things online in 2015 and accept the risk of fraud my own damn self. And the merchant should (and wants to!) be capable of serving me.

[vectorpush]

Nothing you said conflicts with my post. Your situation is extremely unusual and pretty much defines "high risk" from a fraud prevention perspective. For 99% of the population this is a non-issue.

[aianus]

My point is that with Bitcoin I can opt-out of the overpriced fraud protection racket that is my credit card. This allows transactions to take place that could not take place otherwise. It's a feature, not a bug.

If you think my situation is too crazy, then consider someone who wants to buy a $15,000 Rolex or gold bar online or place a $5,000 bet on a football game starting in 3 minutes. There are many applications for digital cash that are not being served by existing electronic payment methods.

[vectorpush]

> My point is that with Bitcoin I can opt-out of the overpriced fraud protection racket that is my credit card.

And right there is the crux of your disconnect from the general population. The vast majority of people don't view fraud protection as a racket; it doesn't cost them anything as far as they are aware and the benefits are pretty clear, especially compared with bitcoin where permanent loss of funds because of hackers or arbitrary technical problems is a real risk.

> then consider someone who wants to buy a $15,000 Rolex or gold bar online or place a $5,000 bet on a football game starting in 3 minutes.

Ummm, those all sound like pretty unusual use-cases that the general population has no use for. I never said bitcoin was useless so you can stop proselytizing, all I said was that credit cards are clearly much safer than bitcoin if you define safe to mean "protects my money from being lost or stolen".

[berns]

It isn't a currency, it's just another payment method. Your provider will exchange the bitcoins for a real currency to pay their employees and taxes.

[necessity]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money