[jerf]

This is a lot of words that amount to "Nuh-uh!"

The entire point of the "if you're not paying, you're the product" spiel is that everybody already knows everything you said, but there's a fundamental difference between paying and not paying. You're not going to get that far demanding that people stop thinking there's a difference, nor are people going to stop verbalizing that difference, nor should they. What's cliche on HN is something the vast majority of the rest of the world still has not heard, and in this case, ought to.

[moultano]

The reason this argument is so useless it that it is so non-specific. A useful form would be "This company is treating me poorly in way X because they have an incentive to do so." Instead, X is never specified, just implied via FUD.

Companies only interested in short-term profits might be willing to strip mine their users and treat them poorly. Companies that are interested in the long term have an incentive to treat their users well, i.e. as if they were paying customers.

[sunnyps]

That was a rational argument. You know as well as I do that if you explained it the way I did above most people would not care. But instead you insist on the "you're the product" FUD nonsense to elicit an emotional response. Spreading FUD is a demagogue's job, I would never condone it.

[jerf]

The point is that it's a plainly obvious rational argument that is the ground state of the discussion, not some brilliant insight that once it is revealed to people they're sure to see it your way.

And it's not FUD to point out where money flows really come from. In fact I find myself wondering why you are so passionate about people not talking about it? It's not an invalid observation, a lie, or something irrelevant, so people aren't going to stop talking about it. Generally jumping up and down and shouting "Stop following the money!" is, well, not how conversations on HN go, shall we say? If you're searching for something to be contrarian about I can provide a few better candidates....

[sunnyps]

I'm passionate because I'm sick and tired of seeing the same nonsensical dishonest FUD memes such as "you're the product". "You're the product" is absolutely a lie, even with the most generous interpretation it implies something you own is being sold. Can you point out what thing is being sold? I'm not interested in being part of some "true HN" clique that rewards paranoia for imaginary internet points. And I'm not saying that you should "Stop following the money!", it's clear where the money comes from. Just don't make the waters muddy by spreading FUD when it's already clear is all I'm saying.

[DanBC]

> Can you point out what thing is being sold?

In EU my personal information (my name, my username, my email addresses, my clicks, my metadata, etc) is mine and there are limits to what you can do with it.

In US who knows. There seems to be strict rules on HIPPA, and some tax stuff, and some money laundering stuff. But other than that selling the data seems to be fine.

[kuschku]

EU data laws for everything are on a similar level to HIPPA.

Today I got an email because a website where I had an account was sold (from one SevenOne subsidary to another one) and they explained who owned it before, who will own it after, and explained to me that I’d have to allow them to copy my account data to the new company, otherwise it would not be transferred and thereby be lost.

That’s how you do it.

When US startups I have accounts with get bought – like WhatsApp – I never got an email asking if they could sell my data to Facebook.

[RodericDay]

"You are the product" means "You're actually ultimately paying for this, whether you know it or not". That's the point of advertising.

[ocdtrekkie]

Why is your being 'sick and tired' of seeing a valid concern negating the value of discussing a valid concern? Nobody's doing anything about this valid concern, so clearly it hasn't been discussed enough.

[cwilkes]

you insist on the "you're the product" FUD nonsense

I like the phrase as it draw attention to the fact that the services offered aren't "free" but rather are paid via a mechanism that a typical user wouldn't think about. Sure it is shocking, but it is useful.

I'm not sure how it is FUD ... your data is being repackaged and sold off to the highest bidder. There's no doubt in that.

Spreading FUD is a demagogue's job, I would never condone it.

Congrats.