[TeMPOraL]

(Please don't take it personally; I want to comment on a generic phenomenon.)

There is a pattern I see in every HN thread about Facebook. It consists of comments structured like this: "I haven't had a Facebook account for [1 year - ever]. I don't see what's useful about it. I think relationships maintained by it are bad / artificial / unnecessary." Am I the only one who notices that comments of the form "I don't use X therefore I have an opinion on X" are of... limited usefulness?

--

> I found that any event worth going to the organizer would simply call, message or email you because they wanted you to be there.

Facebook invitations are equivalent to the forms above.

> People vastly underestimate the power of their real social network

Facebook is as real as any other social network.

> and what friendship or love can do to motivate people to maintain relationships.

If you're my friend or love interest, why are you making it more difficult for me to contact you?

> Some advice for anyone who plans on closing their Facebook account: scrape any photos with you in them (and anyone you have an affinity for), phone numbers and the big one: birthdays. My calendar reminds me when someone has a birthday and their phone numbers sit in my contacts list.

One of the most pathetic things people do on-line is putting a fake birthday into Facebook (and before that, into the IMs they were using), to see who actually remembers the real date. It always makes me wonder, what they're trying to prove this way? That some people don't care about them enough to remember the date? Well guess what, nobody is that fucking important. Your parents and your spouse may remember the date, but why should anyone else? Do you remember the birth dates of people you expect to remember yours?

[bigbugbag]

> Facebook is as real as any other social network.

This has been proven otherwise.

> If you're my friend or love interest, why are you making it more difficult for me to contact you?

exactly! why do you force me to register an account on a known privacy invader website that don't respect its words nor its users to get in touch with you ?

>One of the most pathetic things people do on-line is putting a fake birthday into Facebook to see who actually remembers the real date.

The people I know who do that are doing it just because they don't want to give away their real birth date. This is sensitive info.

[TeMPOraL]

> This has been proven otherwise.

[citation needed]. Seriously, what exactly is so different about Facebook? As far as I can tell, it's the usual generational whining about "technology destroying social relations", that was repeated by every generation since invention of newspapers.

> exactly! why do you force me to register an account on a known privacy invader website that don't respect its words nor its users to get in touch with you ?

The OP phrased his comment in a way that implied you are the one burdening your loved ones on purpose, and this was what I responded to.

> The people I know who do that are doing it just because they don't want to give away their real birth date. This is sensitive info.

Birthdays are absolutely not sensitive info (regardless of legal definition); if you're thinking that, you're fooling yourself. Like name, address, sex, and bank account number, they're public info. Usernames, not passwords. You've probably left all of those multiple times this year to random untrusted third parties.

[bigbugbag]

>[citation needed]. Seriously, what exactly is so different about Facebook? As far as I can tell, it's the usual generational whining about "technology destroying social relations", that was repeated by every generation since invention of newspapers.

This is not wikipedia. just use a search engine, talk to people who closed their or got removed from facebook, go to the library to get books on the subject, get in a horrible accident and count how many facebook contacts are on your bedside when you wake up, get convicted and thrown in jail and see how many facebook contacts will be visiting you regularly for 10 years.

I fail to understand how exactly it is news: party friends are not true friends, drug friends are not true friends, facebook contacts are not true friends either.

> The OP phrased his comment in a way that implied you are the one burdening your loved ones on purpose, and this was what I responded to.

And I phrased mine to show that your counter argument works both ways, except facebook is preventing outside people from getting in touch with inside people, not the other way around.

>Birthdays are absolutely not sensitive info (regardless of legal definition); if you're thinking that, you're fooling yourself. Like name, address, sex, and bank account number, they're public info. Usernames, not passwords. You've probably left all of those multiple times this year to random untrusted third parties.

People who do not put heir real birth date may think that, on the other I know that it is a sensitive information for I have personal experience with its exploitation. You may have confused a few concept here, data that is public can also be sensitive, see social engineering. But let's just give you a random innocent example: girl has crush on boy, stalks his facebook for birth date, find out his astrology sign, renounces for astrocompatibility bs. Boy unknowingly missed opportunity to explore bases.

[TeMPOraL]

> This is not wikipedia.

This is Hacker News. I actually expect higher standards of this place.

> I fail to understand how exactly it is news: party friends are not true friends, drug friends are not true friends, facebook contacts are not true friends either.

You seem to believe that "Facebook network" and "real life network" are distinct networks. They're not. Usually there are only few points when they don't overlap - because in reality, you have one social network and Facebook is a convenient tool to manage it. So yes, I if I get into an accident or get thrown into a jail I expect a lot of my Facebook friends, who are also real-life friends, to show up. Hell, I expect many more to come than without Facebook, because there really is no other widespread way of keeping many people updated about each other's day-to-day life.

> And I phrased mine to show that your counter argument works both ways, except facebook is preventing outside people from getting in touch with inside people, not the other way around.

I accept that it works both ways. In most discussions, people actually bring up only the side from your counter, completely forgetting about the one I wanted to remind OP about.

> You may have confused a few concept here, data that is public can also be sensitive, see social engineering.

Part of the problem of social engineering is that people treat "public but sensitive data" as anything but public. If I know your birthday or address or bank account number, it doesn't prove anything about my relationship to you. People who ignore it end up becoming victims of social engineering attacks. I think it's a part of basic security training to make them understand that this data is to be assumed public knowledge.

> a random innocent example: girl has crush on boy, stalks his facebook for birth date, find out his astrology sign, renounces for astrocompatibility bs. Boy unknowingly missed opportunity to explore bases.

Well, so what? Things like these happen all the time with any random things. She may have overheard his birth date in a conversation. Or maybe he put a fake date and she thought it's true and gave up even though both were astrocompatibile and believed in the BS. It's easy to invent such examples to prove just about any point.

[bigbugbag]

As there is a current high profile story illustrating the issue of the effect of social media on teen, here are some of the requested citation: http://www.letsbegamechangers.com/ and www.zmonline.com/photos/zm-photos/instagram-celeb-reveals-the-ugly-reality-behind-her-social-media-presence/

> You seem to believe that "Facebook network" and "real life network" are distinct networks. They're not. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. Having a look in a teen's facebook versus his/her real life should be enough to see by yourself the reality is not what you claim. But I'll rather introduce you to Robin Dunbar and the Dunbar Number: "orry, Facebook friends: Our brains can't keep up["1] and "The Limits of Friendship"[2]

> In most discussions, people actually bring up only the side from your counter, completely forgetting about the one I wanted to remind OP about.

And there is a reason for that, which is simply that facebook added an artificial barrier between people as tool to force people to register to facebook. The wall of the so called walled garden.

> Part of the problem of social engineering is that people treat "public but sensitive data" as anything but public.

Ok, it seems I have failed to express myself correctly and my simple and innocent example failed to get through. Allow me to reformulate: - A birth date is personal data, for it is indeed related to a specific person. -Personal data is sensitive data. - That's it, there's nothing more to it.

I suppose you live in a place and time too far away from the last attempt at rounding people for mass killing and attempted extermination to remember how important and sensitive personal data is.

I guess those who fail to remember history are doomed to relive it.

[1]: http://www.cnet.com/news/sorry-facebook-friends-our-brains-c... [2]: http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/social-medi...

[icanhackit]

Please don't take it personally; I want to comment on a generic phenomenon.

I don't and I appreciate your reply. The amount of years wasn't a penis-measuring contest, it was to add context to the rest of my statement. The subtext was with time your attachment to the thing lessens. I can see that my statement follows a formula that regularly appears in response to popular topics.

> People vastly underestimate the power of their real social network

Facebook is as real as any other social network.

I feel like this was the most important part of what I was trying to say - Don't underestimate human needs or desires. Don't underestimate the power of real friendship. This is what humans have used for a long time. If someone wants to see you, they will. If someone likes you, they'll like you whether you're on MyFace or only accessible by phone. Facebook is only a recent phenomenon, yet people act like they're severing a limb if they don't participate on it.

But! You make a good point and force me to add a caveat: Facebook did add value because I became good friends with people through weak initial bonds. Because of its ease of use, its casualness and how noncommittal you can be with people over it. It helped me produce some valuable relationships which now happen outside of it. It was a catalyst of sorts. But only for a very narrow selection of friends and later in life.

One of the most pathetic things people do on-line is putting a fake birthday into Facebook (and before that, into the IMs they were using), to see who actually remembers the real date.

I don't know anyone like that. They'd be culled from my circle if that's the kind of bullshit they pulled.

[TeMPOraL]

Thank you for taking time to answer :).

> The subtext was with time your attachment to the thing lessens.

I definitely agree with that. It's true about most of things in life; frankly, people (myself included) usually underestimate how people can come to terms with things and/or stop caring about something once they commit to detach from it.

I originally interpreted your comment as typical "I haven't used X for years therefore I don't see why others still use it" kind of comment, which always appear in FB-related threads. I now see that your point was more subtle and I jumped to conclusions.

I agree with your point about close friendships and the power of human needs and desires. But I personally find my life greatly enhanced by the ability new technology, and Facebook in particular, gives to keep the weak ties. Because I found out on many occasions that they don't always stay weak. Every now and then, you may end up getting real close with that one weak acquaintance, and then you're glad you've kept contact.

Also "casualness and how noncommittal you can be with people over it" feel important to me. Maybe it's the introvert vs. extrovert thing again, but myself and a lot of people I know really appreciate the kind of flexible commitment Facebook gives, which is a kind of combination of e-mails, IMs and newsgroups. Being introvert, investing time in constant face-to-face - or even voice - synchronized contact would totally wear me down. I love asynchronous communication, and I know I'm not the only one.

> It helped me produce some valuable relationships which now happen outside of it. It was a catalyst of sorts. But only for a very narrow selection of friends and later in life.

Personally I believe that Facebook, like all technology, works best when it's a part of your life - even if a big part - but does not take over the life completely. You really can't replicate all aspects of off-line contact in software.

> I don't know anyone like that. They'd be culled from my circle if that's the kind of bullshit they pulled.

I know a few, some did that before Facebook with various IMs. Some understand this is pointless and get over it, others sadly don't. I'd probably cull most of those who would make a big issue out of me not remembering, but fortunately AFAIR no one ever did.

[scrollaway]

I agree with you on the gist of your comment but wanted to address this:

> If you're my friend or love interest, why are you making it more difficult for me to contact you?

If you're my friend or love interest, I will immediately lose interest in you if you require me to use something I dislike simply for maintaining an online relationship. I don't make it particularly hard for people to contact me. Email, phone, IRC, gtalk, even shudders skype. If you can't use any of these, or simply talk in real life, you'll need to be quite the snowflake for me to actually use facebook just for you.

[TeMPOraL]

Yes, I agree, it works both ways.