[pron]

I don't think they are uninformed, so feel free to correct me when I'm wrong. My "long-winded" comment wasn't about generic types -- just the first, small bit -- and that bit wasn't about Ceylon's generic types, but about generic reification on a shared platform like the JVM in general, which bakes a variance model into the class. As long as you're the only one doing reification you're sort-of fine, except all those erased generic types aren't quite first-class citizens. I should have clarified that.

As to the rest (and the lion-share) of my comment, I don't think it requires further clarification, and I don't see why you'd even think it's wrong. You've set out to create a new language with new, clean type semantics and a new runtime library, while Kotlin, in contrast, has had a different goal altogether. It doesn't even have its own concrete collection classes, so that's a radically different level of interoperability and a radically different design. That is the major difference between the languages rather than the list of features you've named in an answer to a question by someone else (and like I said, either approach has its proponents), so from my perspective it was you who was adding to the confusion, which I wanted to correct.

The answer to the question "what is the difference between Ceylon and Kotlin?" IMO (at least when the JVM target is concerned) is that Ceylon is a completely new "greenfield" language with a new, powerful type system, new semantics and a new runtime library, while Kotlin is "a better Java", a language preserving Java's semantics and standard library while solving its pressing shortcomings and providing a more modern syntax, and made to be adopted piecemeal into Java codebases. Of course there's some overlap, too, but that's the different in philosophies in broad strokes. In terms of features, some are similar (with Kotlin adopting some of Ceylon's ideas) and some are different, but that isn't the big difference.

For those reasons, BTW, while it would be very nice to have a Kotlin spec, it isn't as necessary, as most its semantics are borrowed from Java.

Of course, you may well think that those linguistic features are a bigger difference than the design goals, but I will disagree (due to the reasons I laid out in my other comment), and no amount of Ceylon expertise is relevant to that disagreement.

[gavinking]

Well it should be very clear, that if you believe that Ceylon has a problem interoperating with Java's unreified generics, that you don't know enough about Ceylon to be able to comment with any sort of certainty on the topic of Ceylon and Java interop.

Because you quite obviously have never even tried it once.

That's clear, isn't it?

[pron]

I didn't say that Ceylon has a problem interoperating with Java's unreified generics, just that reified generics on a shared platform have their own issues. The level of interoperability, though, is radically different from Kotlin's. And yes, I have never tried Ceylon because its stated design goals -- while great -- are not what I'm looking for. If I got the design goals and philosophy wrong I'll happily give it a try. I will also reiterate that I can certainly see that other people may prefer Ceylon's design goals over Kotlin's.

[gavinking]

Now you're just lying. You said:

"The problem with reified generics isn't their efficiency, but that they don't play nice with other generic types on the platform (which is the vast majority)."

And the context of the comment was quite clearly Ceylon interoperating with Java as anyone can verify.

I have a friendly request for you: please don't comment about Ceylon on any more hackernews or reddit threads. It's great that you like Kotlin and are having success with it. I'm happy for you. Post about how great Kotlin is on all the Kotlin threads you like.

But it's just not a good thing for anyone that you're going posting on Ceylon threads, speculating about made-up problems with Ceylon, and pretending you know Ceylon when you don't.

So please stick to the Kotlin threads is all I'm asking, OK?

[twic]

> I have a friendly request for you: please don't comment about Ceylon on any more hackernews or reddit threads.

This is really unproductive. Reddit and HN are discussion forums; what we want on them is more discussion, not less. We want high-quality, accurate, discussion, but if we're not getting that, the solution is to raise the quality, not reduce the volume.

In particular, the last thing i, as a reader of discussions, want is for a discussion forum to turn into a confederation of theocracies where nobody but the local priesthood are allowed to speak.

So, pron, i also have a friendly request for you: please continue to comment about Ceylon wherever you like - but make sure you've done your homework before doing so!

Specifically, if you could produce a concrete example of how Ceylon's reified generics interact poorly with Java's generics, that would be really interesting. If you could produce an example of how non-Ceylon reified generics interact poorly with Java generics, then that would be interesting, and gavinking could explain how Ceylon avoids the problem, which would also be interesting. And if you find that actually, there isn't such a problem with reified generics, that would be interesting too, not least for you.

[pron]

Assume you have language with a generic type List<T>, and an instance, v, of the type List<Integer>. Can you then pass that value to a method expecting a List<Number> (assuming Number is a supertype of Integer)? Well, that depends on the variance rules of the language and the runtime. On the JVM, any type is checked both at compile time and at runtime. Erased generics, though, mean that the runtime type of v is just List, while reified generics mean that its List<Integer>. When a type is reified -- namely, its full type information is available at runtime -- the runtime needs to know the relationship between any two types: does one extend the other or are the unrelated? But with generics and variance, there is no "best way" to do variance and different languages may choose different variance models. Because the runtime has to know what is the relationship between any two types, the v variable has to know, at runtime, whether it is also an instance of List<Number> or not. This means that the same generic classes cannot be shared among different languages with reified generics, if they have different variance rules, because the language's decision is baked into the compiled class. That's what I meant in my comment. Languages on a JVM shouldn't have reified generics because then they may not play well with others.

With Ceylon, the issue is different, because the JVM -- unlike the CLR -- doesn't have a standard way of specifying reified generics (and that's a good thing, IMO, because of the "baked-in variance problem"). However, that means that none of the standard Java generic classes are first-class citizens in Ceylon world, because they don't have the reified runtime type information. This isn't a problem for Ceylon because one of its stated goals (it says so right on their website) is to replace the Java standard libraries, so this incongruence doesn't even matter to them because a Ceylon List and a Java List are not even the same type to begin with. That a Java list instance does not have a reified generic type in Ceylon is, therefore, not a problem for them, because Ceylon didn't set out to make the existing classes first-class citizens of its brand-new ecosystem.

This is why I and the Ceylon guys have this misunderstanding. They think I'm saying Ceylon has a problem, but I'm not. Ceylon has certain core design goals that may be what some people want but not others, that is all. But those design decisions do have ramifications.

BTW, the "baked-in variance" problem will not get introduced into the JVM with the addition of specialized generics for value types in Java 10, because value types can't extend other types, and so a List<int> can't also be a list of any supertype (or subtype).

[gavinking]

>> none of the standard Java generic classes are first-class citizens in Ceylon world, because they don't have the reified runtime type information <<

This is just not true. In Ceylon when you import a Java generic class, you can do everything with it that you can do with the same class in Java.

Please stop posting incorrect things about Ceylon. You're coming off as a walking, ranting, personification of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[lomnakkus]

> please continue to comment about Ceylon wherever you like - but make sure you've done your homework before doing so!

The issue with this type of comment is that we (humans) have a set of cognitive biases which often lead us to think that we've "done [our] homework" when, in fact, we haven't. Such a person would probably actually only absorb the first portion of the quoted sentence from your post.

(Sorry for the slightly OT.)

[justthistime_]

He did the same uninformed rants about other languages for a long time already. It's unlikely that he will do his homework any time soon.

[pron]

What's unlikely is that you'll ever try to understand what it is that I'm saying when I talk about language design goals.

[tome]

Seconding that.

[pron]

Happily, as long as you don't misrepresent the difference between the languages.

[gavinking]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

[pron]

Thank you!

[UnFroMage]

> The level of interoperability, though, is radically different from Kotlin's

There's no truth in that. Sure, it's possible that there are some differences in how we both do interop, and that some things are easier in one or the other, but overall you've no basis for claiming that, and I strongly suspect you haven't tried Ceylon for interop at all or you would not say that.

When you do try and find interop things that we should improve, please let us know in our issue tracker and we'll do our best to fix it.

Meanwhile, please stop with the FUD.

[pron]

> Sure, it's possible that there are some differences in how we both do interop

There are no "some differences", but a radically different philosophy which is at the very core of the language's design. A Kotlin list is a Java list and vice-versa; a Kotlin map is a Java map and vice-versa; a Kotlin set is a Java set and vice-versa. The same, BTW, is true for Clojure, but unlike Clojure, Kotlin doesn't just keep the interfaces, but also the implementations. Kotlin hardly even has a standard library. The Java standard libraries are Kotlin's standard libraries (modulo some extension methods). Ceylon has its own standard libraries, and, in general, Java libraries are not idiomatic Ceylon libraries. That Ceylon even has CeylonList/JavaList types shows how the two approaches are worlds apart. Comparing it to Kotlin in that regard is ridiculous, and I don't even know why you'd try. It is one of Ceylon's strengths that it has its own library, and one of Kotlin's that it doesn't. Each appeals to different needs, and I don't see why you feel you should blur the differences.

> When you do try and find interop things that we should improve

It's not about that. You may think that Ceylon's Java interop is great. It may be just the right amount of interoperability that you want. But claiming it is anywhere near Kotlin's is just preposterous. I didn't say that Ceylon's Java interop is bad, but it's just not even in the same ballpark as Koltin's. But that's OK, because the two languages have different philosophies.

> Meanwhile, please stop with the FUD.

Please stop calling it FUD. I have never, ever said people shouldn't use Ceylon, that it's a bad language or even that Kotlin is better. I have emphasized the big difference in design goals between the two languages that makes them very different in practice: Ceylon has an advanced, very elegant, beautiful type system, while Kotlin has many thousands of libraries. Where is the FUD?

OTOH, instead of calling it FUD, and since this is a Ceylon thread, I would very much like to hear a justification for Ceylon's design; not the choices of the particular language features -- I will readily admit that Ceylon is the best language ever devised by man -- but why being better at the language/typesystem level, without offering a new paradigm warrants switching a language in the first place. After all, it doesn't offer anything radical when it comes to concurrency (like Clojure or Erlang or Go) or functional purity/equational reasoning (like Haskell). It's just cleaner and more elegant than Java or Scala. OCaml is another such beautiful, well-designed language, but, perhaps sadly, it has hardly seen any adoption. Why do you believe that is enough to get people to switch to a new language? For example, I know that Joe Armstrong thought a lot about the problem of fault-tolerant systems, and he came up with the idea of isolating failure; Rich Hickey thought a lot about state and identity and came up with Clojure's data structures and controlled mutation. Their reasoning is fascinating. What is that behind Ceylon's (I can tell you the reasoning behind Kotlin)? Did you reach the conclusion that a major obstacle to building modern software at this point in time is deficiencies in the type system? I'm not mocking, and I'm not saying it isn't, but unlike in Clojure's, Erlang's, Rust's and Kotlin's case (or Haskell or Scala), I've just never seen the Ceylon philosophy explained.

I've read Ceylon's guiding principles, but they haven't answered the question. If simply doing the same thing better justifies starting over, then supposing Ceylon takes off, in a few years Ceylon, too, will accumulate cruft, and its design mistakes (in the language or libraries) will become apparent. What will Ceylon advocate then? Backwards compatibility or breaking changes (or maybe a new language altogether)? And if the idea is to start over every 20 years -- I can see the merit in that argument -- why not a whole new paradigm? Is everything OK except mistakes in library design and the type system?

You don't have to answer, and you can either address or ignore my views -- but please don't call them FUD.

[UnFroMage]

> But claiming it is anywhere near Kotlin's is just preposterous.

The only example you give is that they don't have their own standard library. I agree it's a difference, but you really think that makes it worlds apart?

I mean, in Ceylon you can also use the JDK, so I don't quite see the big thing, but even then, OK that's one difference (and it's a justified one too, but fine, OK). That's really the thing that makes you say that we have Java interop a world apart? I understand it may be an important point for you, but I don't understand how you can extrapolate that it's so important for everyone.

> while Kotlin has many thousands of libraries. Where is the FUD?

There. Right there ;)

[pron]

> I agree it's a difference, but you really think that makes it worlds apart?

Yes. Well, it's one of the symptoms. Let me explain, but instead of using my own words, let me quote Ceylon's website:

Ceylon is a new programming language that's deeply influenced by Java, designed by people who are unapologetic fans of Java... But much of our frustration is not even with the Java language itself. The extremely outdated class libraries that form the Java SE SDK are riddled with problems. Developing a great SDK is a top priority of the project... Java interoperability is a major priority for the project. However, since Ceylon will be based on its own modular SDK, making a clean break from the legacy Java SDK, Ceylon will require new frameworks designed especially for Ceylon.

In one of the comments, Gavin King, Ceylon's chief designer, explains what differentiates Ceylon from other attempts:

What's going to be very challenging is the _platform_: the libraries and frameworks. This is where most of the potential value of this project resides, but it's where we have relatively more work to do than other projects which simply aim to leverage the Java SDK "as is".

So (my words now), Ceylon is a new language with a new ecosystem. It is a greenfield project that also can interoperate with "legacy" Java libraries. Kotlin is fundamentally different, as Gavin Kind correctly notes. It's decided from the get go that the Java ecosystem is the Kotlin ecosystem. That any Java library is an idiomatic Kotlin library and will be treated the same way as if it were written in Kotlin (that goal has not been achieved 100%, but certainly 95%). That meant that any language feature that would have made the Java ecosystem different from the Kotlin ecosystem was intentionally left out. For Ceylon, the goal was different. A new better language and a new better SDK. When interoperability was concerned, wrapper types were introduced and sometimes language features (that are not recommended for Ceylon code) like use-site variance, too. That is a completely different perspective with major implications. Kotlin really does have many thousands of Koltin libraries; Ceylon doesn't. OTOH, Ceylon is a more comprehensively designed language with less compromises.

I can speak from experience. I'm the author of several Java libraries. Some of them have hundreds of API classes and thousands of methods. Making those libraries "Kotlin idiomatic" was zero effort, and adding all the necessary "Kotlin bling" (e.g. cool use of inline functions which are Kotlin's poor-man's macros) took a couple hundred lines of code, none of which were really necessary. Clojure, BTW, is similar, but less ambitious in that regard. As all Clojure collections are Java collections and vice-versa, Rich Hickey specifically said that Java libraries should not be wrapped, as many can be used as-is, simply passing in and getting out plain Clojure types. Ceylon is different. If I have a library working with Java collections (which is pretty much all of them), any use by Ceylon code would feel foreign and may require wrapping or other special handling. But that is by design. It says so right there on the Ceylon website. How can any of that be FUD?

> There. Right there ;)

I see. Then consider changing the Ceylon website because it's just full of FUD about replacing the ecosystem. I might be guilty of spreading it, but I'm not the source.

[gavinking]

Earlier today I, in all sincerity, invited you to our Gitter channel, where there's always people discussing this stuff night and day. That invitation is still there. You're welcome any time you like.