[catzaa]

> I've heard these arguments time and again while the European borders were dissolved, NONE of it came true.

There is a huge difference. For a country to go into the EU, it has a lot of requirements - it isn't just an arbitrary opening of the borders.

The EU would never allow a backwards developing country to become part.

> People that don't like a level playing field can't be much of a player.

The effect of mass immigration is usually worse on the lower strata of society (plumbers, manual labourers) - not me and you.

And yes, there are people who would not be able to compete - we can't all be rocket scientists.

[jacquesm]

Have you travelled in Europe ? Say from the Polish/Russian boarder (or the Romanian one) to the coast of the Atlantic?

In spite of those 'requirements' the differences are vast, and yet, for the most part people still live where they lived before the borders opened up. Not as stark as in South Africa, for sure, but very real nonetheless.

The plumbers and the manual labourers have some increased competition but nothing they can't handle.

The only difference probably is that what used to be illegal labourers are now legal labourers, with (for the most part, though there definitely have been documented cases of very bad exceptions) better living conditions.

We don't all have to be rocket scientists in order to be able to compete for work at a fair rate. If a Polish guy could do my job they'd be welcome to it, I'd do my best to educate myself to a level where I could compete again.

I've been self employed for a long time, and in spite of a huge influx of Polish, Romanian, Czech, Hungarian and former Jugoslavian citizens there has been hardly a ripple in the market. In fact, some of these people set a new standard for quality of workmanship, something the 'locals' had gotten a little laid back about for lack of competition.

Borders are arbitrary constructs created to foster areas of artificial scarcity and control of people, the world is a much better place without them.

It seems to me that you are scared of something, South Africa is a place that has a history of very strong inequality, likely the shockwaves of the change there will reverberate for a long time, especially because of the enormous differences between those that have and those that don't.

For Europe, the opening of the borders has been a major boost in the average quality of life here for many, it will still take decades before the distribution is more uniform but at least we're underway. 50 year too late.

[catzaa]

> Have you travelled in Europe ? Say from the Polish/Russian boarder (or the Romanian one) to the coast of the Atlantic? > In spite of those 'requirements' the differences are vast, and yet, for the most part people still live where they lived before the borders opened up. Not as stark as in South Africa, for sure, but very real nonetheless.

All the poorer countries in the EU are stable democratic countries. They are poorer, but are set for enormous growth (that is why the richer countries wants them part of the EU – because they have much better growth potential than the most developed countries).

Also note that those crossing borders in the EU can’t vote in their newly adopted country (since they are still citizens of their home country). So there are restrictions on many government services also.

> Borders are arbitrary constructs created to foster areas of artificial scarcity and control of people, the world is a much better place without them.

Private property is also an “arbitrary construct” but it doesn’t mean that they are bad. Borders allow government investment of taxpayer money in a country (this being used to benefit the tax payers).

> It seems to me that you are scared of something, South Africa is a place that has a history of very strong inequality, likely the shockwaves of the change there will reverberate for a long time, especially because of the enormous differences between those that have and those that don't.

Illegal immigration could cause the government to collapse, sending South Africa into a downward spiral and de-industrialising the country.

You have not addressed any of my concerns, but try to justify it with the EU (which is only a union with very select and stable countries, with them not becoming citizens of their “adopted” country).