[ThePhysicist]

In defense of the Munich police (which is not always friendly but mostly respectful), the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge.

Being checked when entering Germany from the Netherlands isn't so unusual though, as there are lots of people trafficking drugs across the border (mostly on a small scale though). Friends of mine got checked several times as well even though they're "European looking", but I haven't heard from cases where people got taken to a police station for further inquiry.

As a German I'm sorry that this happened, because I actually think we got one of the most friendly and helpful police forces in Europe.

Concerning your dismissal at the police station: As far as I know you would have had the right to be driven back to your original location in Munich afterwards. My advice: Complain. In Germany, this is the best way to get what you want :D

[philangist]

The author did claim in the article that he's a dutch citizen and presumably the police would know this since they confiscated his passport. I'm not sure about the status of the refugee crisis in Bavaria, but I'd wager a guess that most of the people illegally entering the region or trafficking drugs aren't EU citizens on a business trip.

The author wasn't just "checked" (which I assume happens to everyone on the bus), he was asked to get off the bus, searched again on a public street, heard disparaging comments made about him by a police office, and was again checked in the police station and asked to strip naked.

Of course I wasn't there and I don't actually know what happened, but from the version of events written here there's a very obvious and very uncomfortable conclusion to be reached. The thing about racism like this is that there's always an element of plausible deniability to it. No cop is going to come out and say "we're detaining you because you're black and you fit the profile", but when it does happen to you it's very obvious what's going on.

If anyone is curious, the author's image can be found on his company's website. He's David Asabina - http://en.solarswing.nl/our-team/

[ThePhysicist]

As I said in another thread, racism is a problem in Germany and you can't deny the fact that people in the police force might be racist or biased against certain groups of people. I just think the picture the author paints of the German police force is maybe a bit too harsh, which is why I tried to find a possible explanation. I can absolutely understand his anger though and I do not try to defend the actions of the police here.

[discardorama]

> racism is a problem in Germany

racism is a problem everywhere. As a non-white person, I can assure you that my compatriots are some of the most racist I've met.

[Drdrdrq]

Basing my view on the story he outlined I don't think he is too harsh on them - if anything, I admire him for being able to compose such a civilized letter. There are parts of it which are maybe a bit harsh (better-than-canine sniffing abilities - my words), but I wouldn't be able to restrain myself as much as him in a similar situation.

[mohawk]

Perhaps you think that police are friendly and helpful because of your experiences. So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.

Perhaps we could experimentally test your hypothesis of friendly police behaviour. Start wearing dreadlocks, put on baggy pants and some other more 'hip-hop' looking clothes. Put some colour on your face and make it look darker.

Do this for a year, and _then_ tell us what you think.

[ThePhysicist]

There definitely is subtle or even open racism in Germany, and it is true that some people will treat you very differently if you look "non-European". Appearance-based or racial profiling is also inarguably done by the police and is definitely injust as well. The best we can do to fight this is to stand up for each other, and in fact I often see people doing this and openly intervening and calling out on people that are being racist. While this does not solve the problem of racism it at least creates a climate where racism is seen as something that is not tolerated, which in turn will help to drive it back.

[mohawk]

I agree 100%.

I didn't mean to attack you personally, it's just very easy to become blind to things that don't affect you personally. The last paragraph of the blog post touches on this as well. I still think it would be an interesting experiment, because of course my opinions on Bavarian police are also based on extrapolation from anecdotes that i have heard.

[wkimeria]

Heh,

You don’t even have to dress differently, just change your skin color. I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends who share the same socio-economic profile, but our experiences with the police have been vastly different (I’m in the U.S and talking about the Boston area).

[crusso]

So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.

There's nothing like the irony of trying to combat bigotry with generalizations.

[mohawk]

I am from Germany. Bavarian police is famous here. They do profiling based on your looks, it is called "Verdachtsunabhängige Personenkontrolle". I have heard plenty of complaints from people living in Bavaria, e.g. wearing dreadlocks means you are virtually guaranteed a number of searches and stops by police per year, without any probable cause or even a crime having happened.

If they did this to the majority of Bavarians, things would change quickly. So therefore my guess...

[wolfgke]

Also from Germany and heard the same stories about police in Bavaria. Bavaria is a lot more law and order than most other German states (some people compare this with the situation that Texas is a lot more law and order than most other US states; I really don't know whether this comparison fits or not).

[ameen]

Is Bavaria considered the Texas of Germany?

[zeveb]

> So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.

One can't help one's colour, but one can help one's hairstyle and clothes. How one presents oneself is one aspect of one's communication with others, to include the police. If one broadcasts the message, 'I am likely to be a petty criminal' to the police, one should expect to be harassed.

[wkimeria]

Sorry, but this is such a dumb argument. I'm black, I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends, we share the same socio-economic background, but yet the treatment we get from the police is vastly different (random 'dwb' stops, harrasment, and in one case a very pissed off white cop who hated the fact that my wife is white). Oh, and about 70% of my friends have smoked weed at some point in their life. I've never done so (but guess who has been stopped multiple times and searched, both while driving and having committed no crime, and a couple of times when walking)

[Bouncingsoul1]

(1) All persons shall be equal before the law. (2) Except the person looks like a petty criminal

[Consultant32452]

If I walk up to a police officer and tell them I'm a threat to them I expect to get extra attention I probably won't like. Pretending like body language and other forms of communication don't send the same message is disingenuous.

[vkou]

So, having darker skin makes someone a threat?

[Consultant32452]

Darker skin does not equal threatening body language.

[wkimeria]

So what body language was James Blake showing when he was tackled by police, or Amadou Diallo when he was shot 41 times by plainclothes cops. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to justify racism.

[Consultant32452]

I'm completely unfamiliar with both of those names but based on the way you phrased it I'm happy to accept your implication that police officers involved behaved inappropriately and probably illegally. I don't see what that has to do with what I said. If you're a white dude wearing a biker gang jacket and generally acting the fool I expect you to be harassed the same way I expect a black person wearing gang colors and reeking of pot to be harassed. This isn't rocket science.

[pstuart]

Like this "thug"?

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/walking-while-black-beverl...

Let me guess, you're white?

[sfk]

Another this-is-how-the-world-works apologist on HN.

[TeMPOraL]

Well, you get to ignore reality at your own peril.

[xtrumanx]

That sounds very similar to the "what was she wearing when she got harassed" mentality which I believe was frowned upon around here.

[Nadya]

Reality is not idealism. It would be ideal if people didn't have to care what they were wearing and I don't think people disagree with "that would be a better world".

The keywords are "that would be a better world" compared to "this is the world we live in".

You don't see people going into a ghetto at night wearing a Rolex watch, a 20kt gold chain, a money clip in their suit pocket, and another wad of cash sticking out of their back pocket.

Those sort of people, the kind ignorant of reality, end up being mugged or robbed. While nobody thinks "they deserve to be robbed" people will say "what the fuck was he doing walking into a ghetto wearing $25,000 in jewelry? Of course he was going to get robbed."

Recognizing reality for what it is instead of what people wish it to be is different than victim blaming. People will try to conflate the former for the latter though.

[TeMPOraL]

Yes. My opinion on both issues is similar (one party may be to blame for an act, but the other can still be considered as behaving irresponsibly), and I am surprised that my comment has not yet been downvoted to the lowest circle of hell.

[0x49]

How you dress and how you present yourself definitely has an effect on how a person people perceives you. This is human nature and will never change.

If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.

[IkmoIkmo]

> If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.

I know just posting 'lol' would simply get me down voted but I have the urge to because it's just laughable.

Anyway there are plenty of examples where this is not the case.

Here's one of countless others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI

At 9:35 if you don't care about the rest.

[0x49]

One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens.

It seems you arent going to listen to reason. It doesnt really matter much to me. I will continue to dress appropriately and be treated well.

I also find it funny that you sent me your proof in the form of a skit from a comedy show (which can be cut, stopped, and changed, to push a specific agenda)..lol?

[IkmoIkmo]

> One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens.

Systematic? I told you you're wrong and that's a fact. You said if you just wear a suit etc, you're treated well. I showed you, that's not true. It's that simple. And no I didn't prove this with a comedy show, I proved it by giving an example of a correspondent of one of the most watched television shows in the US who was 'dressed splendidly in a tailored suit', yet he was stopped. That's not comedy, it's a fact that throws your contention in the trash. Obviously I can't prove anything systematic with anecdotal evidence (which I didn't allude to, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth), just like you can't prove anything systematic on the basis of your own personal experience. What I can do is merely refute you'll always get treated well as long as you simply wear a suit and I think that's obvious.

Either way it's a pretty sad state of affairs one can't wear normal attire or sports attire because you'd be risk getting harassed by police. The notion I'd want to wear some kind of civility-uniform just to not get wrongfully harassed by people who serve me, who I pay through my taxes, is silly. And it's especially painful when this requirement largely falls upon people who happened to be born with a certain skin color (as OP's example, supported by many, many studies of racial profiling, shows). To then even feel required to wear a suit, purely to not be treated wrongfully because you have a certain skin color, is degrading. And even then as my example (one of many) shows, you may still be stopped. But feel free to dress 'appropriately', whatever that means. Perhaps it's time for police to send us a manual every year on what we're allowed to wear, you know, what's appropriate, what prevents undue harassment.

[0x49]

Its a show. I honestly dont believe anything i see on a comedy sketch show, especially one as heavily politicized as the daily show. Once again, this is not 'proof' of anything.

Im also not wrong. If you wear a suit, you will be treated better than if you wear casual/hip-hop clothes. Ive seen it myself (and with my friends white and non-white) plenty of times.

Its not just the police. Everyone has an impression of you based on how you present yourself and will treat you accordingly.

You dont need a manual, just common sense.

[corin_]

One example doesn't prove anything, but neither does saying "this is the case, I'm right".

(For what it's worth I have a semi-unrelated anecdote: I'm 25, and in the UK if I buy alcohol or cigarettes in a t-shirt and jeans then I'd estimate I get asked for ID maybe 90% of the time in a shop or 50% in a bar, if I wear even a shirt and jeans, yet alone something smarter... I don't think I've been asked for ID dressed like that in years. Now I live in France though, and haven't been ID'd here ever.)

[creshal]

> the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge right now.

Politics are making sure they are and breathe down their necks all day. The CSU wants nothing more than an escalation so they can show their voters how hard they crack down on the "evil migrants".

[quonn]

> The CSU wants nothing more than an escalation

This is going too far. The CSU is against immigration so they would prefer if the refugee crisis would be over. They also really _are_ scared of not "integrating" refugees properly, so the idea that they would prefer a failure seems far-fetched to me.

[noobermin]

Would complaints not have potential to escalate the situation? Speaking as a colored American here. (I haven't been randomly searched before on the street or bus, but I've learned to be deferential if not for the sake of expediency, at the Airport when passing through TSA).

[ThePhysicist]

While there inarguably is some -often subtle, occasionally open- racism in Germany the law is usually on your side and the system to enforce it is (mostly) working. Openly arguing and even (verbally) fighting with police men/women isn't so unusual here and I think knowing and insisting on your rights is more likely to make the police handle you more cautiously (as they know you know your rights) rather than escalate the situation. Only speaking from my limited experience as a "European looking" person though, so don't take my word for it.

[corv]

It's not unusual to be checked coming from Holland. Then again, police being disrespectful, giving condescending replies, being commandeering and taking advantage of uninformed people is not exactly unheard of. In fact, once an individual has been targeted it's par for the course in many a place.

It's a shame but no wonder that police force turns abrasive so often given that they handle so many abrasive people.

[vsl]

That so? I'm Czech and Bavarian police is famous here, for years, for targeting Czech cars and bullying the passengers (stops without probable cause, extensive searches under false pretenses, picking all CZ, and only CZ, cars from traffic, the list goes on). "Respectful" is not a word we associate with German cops here.

[dao-]

This defense doesn't quite work out. I've heard these stories about Bavarian police doing Racial Profiling on buses, trains and highways again and again before there was any refugee crisis. Experienced it myself too. It's reality, please don't try to play it down.

[tomjen3]

Its Germany police, just slightly hint at them being acting like nazies and they will back away.

[prodmerc]

Or call them Nazis to their face if you want to go on a fun ride :-)

[late2part]

Does this work for you?

[lawlessone]

Bit mean.

[tomjen3]

I agree with that, but if it works.