[stephenwinter2]

Inside Europe there was war at all time. But it was One economic and cultural zone. Especially from 1100 to 1800. What happend after that time ("no common will" etc.) is not a native European quality but the result of British and US policy. Think of the UK efforts in the 19th century that almost ruined Britain just to fight Napoleone Idea of a united Europe. - "No common will" -to repeat this again and again is simply a wish (that unfortunately came true). - Ukraine topic: watch how the borders shift over time. It tells enough about intentions behind it.

[icebraining]

As usual, Yes, Minister explains it in an entertaining way:

    Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for 
    at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In
    that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the
    Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans,
    and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule,
    you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

    Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

    Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing
    [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the
    outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a
    complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against
    the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against
    the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

    Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?

    Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.

    Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

    Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations,
    in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the
    more futile and impotent it becomes.

    Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

    Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.

[fsloth]

"Inside Europe there was war at all time. But it was One economic and cultural zone. Especially from 1100 to 1800. "

This is a new notion for me. This would imply there was a single cultural entity that would encompass all of europe and a single economic system that encompasses the geographic area for this period. What would they be called?

I am sorry I brought current affairs to the discussion - it's a bit offtopic for HN and I was about to delete my first response until I found replies and felt it would be more rude at this point to remove it than not.

Discussing europe circa 19th century is ok I suppose.

[chrismaeda]

This is a lot more fun than debating which browser-based MVC framework is better. ;-)