[clarkmoody]

Criminal penalties agreed upon at the international level basically cede national sovereignty to the "collective" of nations. The individual has nearly no recourse against such crimes, since an appeal would need to go to Congress to change the terms of the treaty.

[arca_vorago]

I think this is the core of the discussion to be had, not just about this treaty but other treaties/TPA's and the general direction of the geostrategic goals of the United States. It's all about national sovereignty, and while I understand the arguments for a reduction of it and an increase in globalism (teetering towards world government), my main issue is that I don't understand how people who have sworn an oath to protect and the defend the constitution can turn around and undermine it, especially without having first had the discussion with the American public about their reasons for such pushes.

I suspect the reason they don't bring these issues into the public light is because they rightly predict that the American people would quickly reject the level of blatant globalism that has pervaded the corridors of power in Wall Street, K Street, and DC.

[pdkl95]

The American Empire is falling apart[1]. Everybody has been distracted with modern technology and the higher standard of living - and complexity - it brings. We have been riding a powerful economic curve for decades, which has kept most people in a "good enough" situation. Revolutions happen when people start to go hungry, and technology and a good-enough economy has prevented that from happening.

Meanwhile, we are starting to see the inevitable consequences of using profit as the sole criteria used when judging societies[2]. I believe this belief system started much earlier, but the Red Scare certainly locked the country into it's fears about anything that wasn't overtly profit-driven. Once the paranoid-style[3] took over, the country has been locked into that course.

So now we have a situation where some people are paranoid about our failing empire and our declining influence. In an effort to preserve what they see as the status quo, they keep trying ever more radical "fixes". The TPP is one such "fix". When you only consider profit, little things like "rule of law" or actually maintaining a functioning society become less important.

This isn't even about "globalism", at least not directly. This is people who see their world crumbling (aka profits are down). Moving jobs around only happens if it's profitable. You could call it a giant bust out[4], except it's our government that's being looted.

> I don't understand how people who have sworn an oath to protect and the defend the constitution can turn around and undermine it

"Everyone has their price."[5]

Organized and well-funded groups like ALEC[6] have been hard at work offering bribes with pre-written bills attached. I wish Lawrence Lessig luck in his quest[7] to fix the corruption issue, but it is going to take a lot more people joining his fight before it can accomplish anything.

--

[1] If anybody doubts this, I suggest listening to this talk by Lawrence Wilkerson (Colin Powell's former chief of staff): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNttT7hDKsk (abridged written version of that talk: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/david-simon-cap... )

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American...

[4] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/bain-capital-tony-s...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Christian_%28film%29

[6] http://billmoyers.com/episode/united-states-of-alec-a-follow...

[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3O1MC1AqvM

[Lawtonfogle]

Same way the Constitution was undermined by obscenity clauses, gun control, voting restriction, and a host of other things.