[chx]

I find comparing the current state of affairs compared to the Stasi simply revolting. I have yet to see (surely I am ignorant) anyone actually living through that state the current situation is worse or even equal.

I didn't live under the Stasi but I was born and raised behind the Iron Curtain and I had a taste of what's going on. It's the fear and suspicion of the next person. You can easily get used to your phone being bugged (ours were and we knew, that's a story for another time) but say you are in a band. Perhaps the drummer writes a report every time over a beer you make a critique of the system. You have no way of knowing. It's hard to describe the feeling and the result on the whole society.

At least the current mass surveillance is only technology and not humans.

[a3n]

The difference is that in the past, technology wasn't up to the task, and so the state had to coerce humans to spy on each other.

Today technology is more than up to the task, and the practice is much more sophisticated and subtle. But the goal is the same, inappropriate knowledge of citizens' affairs and control over citizens and government overseers.

The state within a state may become unassailable.

[joesmo]

No one's claiming the current situation is equal or worse, just that it's heading in the same direction. And that, is hard to deny. I have heard many people who lived under communism say that, including myself.

[nickpsecurity]

Exactly. Aside from my larger post, I'll add that I hear it from people that moved away from China, Cuba, etc. A recent one was a Cuban guy I know whose family immigrated here to get away from propaganda, abusive state, etc. I asked him what they thought and he said his mother totally agreed U.S. was transforming into something similar. He said she calls him up every so often after seeing something on the news, freaking out. She commonly says (paraphrased), "They were promoting (police state-style stuff here) on the news. They said it's for (benefit here). That's what Castro said! They did the same thing in Cuba! It's happening all over again!"

My friend just nods his head and calms her down as he knows it's true. They figure they still have it better in a hybrid, quasi-police state rather than a full one. Russians and Chinese usually just tell me of the media and surveillance actions that it's the same crap as they saw/heard over there. It's just way safer here as enforcement is weaker, our protections are stronger, and private parties are more independent. So, they all encourage us to keep it that way and push back against the advances. Sounds good to me. :)

[jsnathan]

The article does not compare it to today, but to a possible upcoming state of affairs.

> only technology and not humans

I think this is very short-sighted. Technology has much greater potential for censorship and oppression; sentiment analysis and similar techniques are only going to improve over time.

And remember that it is not about making people feel bad, it is about being effective. It always has been. That is what is scary.

[nickpsecurity]

It's true that it's not as extreme. It's actually worse, though, because even people like you can't see a comparison. That people barely worry about new model is done by design. The original model was obvious and scary to everyone. The new model of Dual State (here in U.S.) is to have majority only worry about the seemingly legit, but ever more powerful, public system of law or "justice." Abuses in it are explained away as government incompetence, rich/powerful people getting away with stuff, and otherwise tolerable issues. The secret system is controlled in executive branch, does mass surveillance on whole population, can hit domestic ones with FBI via "parallel construction," act overseas with spies/soldiers/drones, does disinformation/kidnapping/torture/murder, has total secrecy, and has criminal immunity. Since most people neither see their actions nor are targeted, they assume the secret regime is no threat and acting only in their interests. That mental effect of thinking the quasi-dictatorship is all fine and will never harm average American is the strategy of the modern, dual state.

The other component is media partnership. The prior systems taught them that shaping what people see is vitally important to preventing a revolution. The U.S. secret state doesn't seem to outright control the media but the for-profit, elite-controlled media will cooperate voluntarily where it matters. The reason is that the status quo ensures their owners and executives riches plus wield power. How they covered 9/11 incompetence, Iraq deceptions, torture, and Snowden leaks shows cooperation: partnership at worst and aiding in damage control at best. So, we have a Dual State plus a media that keeps public's worries away from secret, dangerous component except for brief coverage of low-impact material unless forced to do more (esp by Snowden, etc). The media is certainly not pushing hard for reforms despite the fact that they're wise enough to know what a surveillance state means for them if they're truly independent and looking for the truth. They're not, though, so they have nothing to worry about if they play along. ;)

This combined approach might expand and last a long time compared to previous surveillance states, dictatorships, etc. The surveillance dragnet went on a decade before Snowden revealed what it really could do. Just like with other topics, media fueled polarization of Americans, got them to fight each other, and drowned them in raw data without any coherent solution. Hell, they couldn't even see the big picture: just stuff in isolation. I first saw this effective combo of pervasive lying plus fait accompli when studying Nazi regime's propaganda. As before, it worked and no changes happened. Secret powers continue to expand, laws keep getting passed giving government + big companies more power, Supreme Court refuses to take critical cases, and U.S. + partners are currently negotiating a treaty (TPP) which will change laws despite lawmakers & voters not being able to read it.

Many similarities to rogue states of the past. You personally might not be feeling the effects but the secret state's targets are: Muslims, privacy technology developers, civil rights activists, reporters/lawyers focusing on govt corruption, etc. Being under surveillance, negative consequences on the job, a few on Do Not Fly list, marginalized in communities, extra searches at airports/borders, extra stops/interrogations by police, occasional random seizure of equipment by SWAT teams, DHS asking people to spy on their neighbors paying attention to anti-government remarks... these are normal for such people in current America. Is that more like democracy w/ Bill of Rights, due process, and presumption of innocence? Or more like life under Stasi rule and surveillance?

Note: It's a hybrid system so they're not going to be exactly the same. We're saying there's similarities, the similarities are growing, some effects are already happening, and so we need to fight it. I think mass surveillance, unjustified interrogations, seizures, threats to activists, DHS encouraging citizen surveillance, etc with it mainly aimed at political enemies sounds very Stasi-like based on what I read in accounts. Including your comment.