[vezzy-fnord]

Voltaire never made his famous non-statement. It was a paraphrasing of his general philosophy written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall in The Friends of Voltaire (1906).

I generally do not side with this article's overblown credit towards democracy, and particularly representative democracy. A common crippling meme among democratic societies is to absolve representatives of responsibility and instead keep insisting everything is the fault of citizens for not going to the ballot box, voting incorrectly at the ballot, and to keep trying again and again until they get it "right", even if there are obvious inefficiencies in the democratic process that must be corrected. Where even the most ardent, statistically aware rationalist will succumb to their emotions and begin spouting feel-good drivel about voting. None of this is to be admired. It is to be condemned as insanity and self-hatred.

[mjklin]

"But the people have solved some pretty important problems,” I said.

“Have they, in fact? The actual practice in a democracy is to vote, not for a given state of affairs, but for a man who claims to be able to achieve that state. I’m not a historian”—Frazier laughed explosively—“quite the contrary—but I suspect that that’s always what is meant by the rule of the people—rule by a man chosen by the people.”

“Isn’t that a possible way out, though?” said Castle. “Suppose we need experts. Why not elect them?”

“For a very simple reason. The people are in no position to evaluate experts. And elected experts are never able to act as they think best. They can’t experiment. The amateur doesn’t appreciate the need for experimentation. He wants his expert to know. And he’s utterly incapable of sustaining the period of doubt during which an experiment works itself out. The experts must either disguise their experiments and pretend to know the outcome in advance or stop experimenting altogether and struggle to maintain the status quo.”

-- B.F. Skinner, "Walden Two"

[mindslight]

> A common crippling meme among democratic societies is to absolve representatives of responsibility and instead keep insisting everything is the fault of citizens for not going to the ballot box, voting incorrectly at the ballot, and to keep trying again and again until they get it "right", even if there are obvious inefficiencies in the democratic process that must be corrected. Where even the most ardent, statistically aware rationalist will succumb to their emotions and begin spouting feel-good drivel about voting. None of this is to be admired. It is to be condemned as insanity and self-hatred.

Well put.

However, democracy is inherently about the masses. I agree with your statement because I often find myself at odds with the masses (or apparently just ahead of them by 15 years, while they play catch up and groupthink transmutes freedom struggles into poor ideas and even oppression), and do not believe that tyranny of the majority is some ideal to strive for.

However, there are only two ways mass surveillance is going to stop - through technical means or through political means. I believe the technical means is the only practical avenue (even if there were political will to end the state-sponsored orgs and control the big-name mass surveillance companies, the business will continue behind the scenes). But I won't detract from those attempting to do so through public means. Even if they do not succeed in [ae]ffecting the government, I would be quite happy if when talking to an arbitrary person there was a good chance they shared my values about privacy. That's culture.

And to appeal to the masses, you have to fluff their sense of self-importance. So I'll give someone a pass to operate within that framework when they're fighting the good fight - if they were to tell the herd followers that following the herd sucked, they would convince no one of anything.

I would love to live in a world where most individuals' primary measure of an idea's validity was not the number of other people who believe it, but I think that's an even loftier goal than ending mass eavesdropping.

[vezzy-fnord]

do not believe that tyranny of the majority is some ideal to strive for

You know, it's kind of funny that direct democracy is commonly derided as "tyranny of the majority". Is it not the case that all democracy, without separation of powers and a legal civil/common law framework to define boundaries, would be tyranny of the majority? But, those things are not exclusive to any political system in the slightest. In a direct democracy like Switzerland, the cantons operate within limitations set by federal law and any cantonal law which violates boundaries can be struck by the Federal Supreme Court.

This is, of course, not to idealize Switzerland. They have many issues, including ongoing mass surveillance through Onyx and files collected by EJPD, they were among the last to grant women suffrage (federally in 1971, but the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden didn't budge until 1991!), they maintained a system of indentured child labor called the Verdingkinder well into the 1970s, the median adult income is lower than in the U.S., etc.

But if you really examine it, democracy by its very nature entails, to some extent, a tyranny of the majority. However, directness allows for much more flexible and reactive amendments and proposals. It's not too expedient, but unfortunately we can't rely on philosopher kings.

[mindslight]

I actually did not mean that specifically about representative democracy, but all democracy. I think the democratic ideal is essentially rule by the majority, which someone at odds with would call "tyranny". Representative democracy, foundational laws, independentish courts, all move away from the democratic ideal in their own ways. Each mechanism has its own positive aspects and poor failure modes, like democracy itself. When people say "democratic", they're usually assuming some of these also.

With respect to mass surveillance, I don't think representative (vs not) currently has much bearing - I believe that most people are presently not opposed to it, whether by (not understanding the technicals, propaganda, not affecting them, feeling powerless to do anything about it).

The prominence of electronic surveillance is quite new (two generations), so widely-held hard-learned moderating laws (eg "Natural Rights") easily remain unapplied.

Courts themselves are part of the government doing the surveillance. They inherently consider themselves as having jurisdiction over everything (even though historically so much as been non-legible), so they're predisposed to thinking that gathering additional information cannot hurt. So they're no help either.

Which is why I think if mass surveillance is going to be curtailed within the next several generations (eg before societal collapse where expensive lessons get internalized as "sins"), it has to be through technical means. Poor technology design and adoption have gotten us to this point by making it so everybody is doing everything in the clear (TLS encrypting the link to your chosen surveillance broker is not security!). So perhaps with a modicum of people caring about their own privacy, combined with the (seemingly) natural swing of the (de)centralization pendulum, responsibly designed privacy preserving systems can be adopted instead.

[nickpsecurity]

I don't think there's an overblown credit at all. An active democracy can get a lot done. U.S. history class shows us that successes, failures, wars, schemes, rebellions, etc. go way back on all kinds of issues. The U.S. democracy, for day to day issues, was a constant battle between all kinds of stakeholders. I'd argue it's been a plutocracy far as economic system going back around 100 years. Nonetheless, the basic freedoms (esp press/protest/speech) and occasional willingness of the people led to resolving many, many problems over time. Even intelligence community got a nice shake-up back in Church committee days with various FOIA extensions letting us dig lots of dirt on them.

I agree that neither direct nor representational democracy solve anything by themselves. The people's ability and willingness to take action (and wisely) is the important part. However, the democratic systems provide extra assurance that this can happen. Speech, press, privacy, etc protections ensure a situation can be assessed, information can get out, people can organize, and so on. A much stronger foundation than the alternatives. Much easier than regimes where they have to sneak around with thumb drives and Tor hoping there's not enough infiltrators to get them all busted.

So, democracy is a good foundation to build on what author describes. The other stuff allows arbitrary actions by rulers to counter anything supporting personal empowerment. In a democracy, that might be countered in a new election cycle or court ruling. I prefer a democracy. However, I'd love to live in one where the people put their effort into what mattered and held their government accountable. They stopped doing that in mine quite a while ago. That's why it's screwed up.

[vezzy-fnord]

Again, speech, press and privacy protections are orthogonal to a democratic process.

People forget, but the United States had strict censorship codes for all of the television, film and comic book industries (respectively - Code of Practices for Television Broadcasters, Hays Code and Comics Code Authority) entrenched for decades, by lobbyists and powerful trade associations. Then the Fairness Doctrine for radio broadcasts, without the repeal of which talk radio would have never flourished (I'll admit a mixed blessing, but important for free speech).

Our freedom of speech is actually greater now than it ever was, but to little avail.

[nickpsecurity]

"Our freedom of speech is actually greater now than it ever was, but to little avail."

It is but it's orthogonal to avail. ;) The freedoms are necessary, the press part has to be solid, and the people have to take action. The press and action are the problems. Freedoms are doing their job of producing opportunities, which I act on regularly.

"People forget, but the United States had strict censorship codes for all of the television, film and comic book industries"

And through the democratic process these were fought and freedoms expanded. This is less likely to work in a monarchy, communist state, theocracy, or dictatorship. That the people's input matters and with bloodless avenues of it creating change is a pre-requisite to major reforms benefiting the people without full-on revolt. So, what systems and countries are you talking about where people did similar stuff within their system while dissident speech, publishing, and organizations were all illegal?

Note: Let's add voting integrity to the list of pre-requisites. The ability to speak about or publish the problems would be a pre-requisite to accountability. If you didn't have that, then privacy in property or communications would help you get word out discretely. Without any of the three, situation starts to sound like like certain South American and Asian countries.

[vezzy-fnord]

Monarchy is not opposed to democracy, even if it's not a constitutional/ceremonial monarchy. Liechtenstein and Monaco are two countries with politically active monarchs, which are nevertheless democratic.

Theocracies in practice are dictatorial, but nominally it just means your "constitution" would be a religious text. I agree those are undesirable.

"Communist state" is an oxymoron, surely you mean Marxist-Leninist state. Dictatorship is too vague.

I'm not really objecting to the democratic process being a vehicle for change, so much as contemporary implementations of it being riddled with inefficiencies and fallacies, as well as the fact that most people completely overlook the crucially important meta-theory of how democracy operates and assume it's all good because the word "democracy" gives them warm, fuzzy feelings.

[nickpsecurity]

Well, since you clarified, I think we're mostly in agreement now. :) I'm pro-democracy while recognizing it has to operate correctly and that's far from how it's happening.

[mindslight]

> intelligence community got a nice shake-up back in Church committee days

If this were true, one would have expected reforms and curtailment to have lasted at least a few generations. This situation seems more akin to a misbehaving child who apologizes only to appease, and carries right on with their activities.

Also, please note that pure democracy - people voting with their time/money/attention/data - is what has brought us this modern surveillance nightmare of Google/Facebook/etc.

[nickpsecurity]

"If this were true, one would have expected reforms and curtailment to have lasted at least a few generations. This situation seems more akin to a misbehaving child who apologizes only to appease, and carries right on with their activities."

Not at all: preserving liberty "requires eternal vigilance." Old lesson. ;) Existing elites and people wanting that for themselves never stop. So, the public has to be watchful. It has to stay on them via every branch of government. That shake-up happened when the public had maximum attention on them while defenders, esp CIA media manipulators, were acting in full force. The result was half-ass justice but made them a lot more careful in what they do domestically and a little more in foreign. Had American voters and media stayed on their ass we would've gotten even better results. But, it brings us to another issue...

"Also, please note that pure democracy - people voting with their time/money/attention/data - is what has brought us this modern surveillance nightmare of Google/Facebook/etc."

...tyranny of the majority. Didn't realize back in school how fundamentally bad that problem was and how pervasively it would affect us. Your illustration is excellent although remember that willing, private surveillance to sell analysis to advertisers and unwilling, government surveillance of all data to be used in convictions or murder aren't the same. ;)

You're right, though, about how majority makes our situation worse by where they put their time and money. They seem to be hardwired to go with whatever will screw them up in the long-run for the smallest, immediate gain. I'm at a loss for how to handle this except to practice CYA to max degree, stay out of dragnets where possible, and invest my own energy/money into better things that might get big.

One example was getting people off of scheming SMS and Facebook messenger for IM clients like WhatApp. It was one of best for usability and incremental step in right direction so I used to recommend it. Actually made it in a huge way. Then Facebook bought it. Well, we have the Whisper apps... (Twitter acquisition) (explitives) I'm not naming any more of them lol. Need these jokers all in non-profits or public-benefit companies with charters protecting the future of the app's security or source.

[paublyrne]

There is an electoral poster by the docks in The Secret of Monkey Island. On examination, it reads:

Vote No1 Governor Marley. When there's only one candidate, there's only one choice!

It think of it every time I fill in a ballot paper.