[mikeshreds]

Hi Paul thanks for your comments.

In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review.

On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponents won't even specify?

[swhipple]

> On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole.

In their initial complaint filing [1] they mention "Synch Technology" (automated video/audio synchronization) several times.

"[...] specifically including the development of Smule's proprietary artificial intelligence technology that analyzes audio and video files and through the use of algorithms, automatically synchronizes video footage to audio files in a manner that results in a pleasing and and appropriate matching of the action and the music"

"[Shred] which purports to have developed a product that detects and segments key points of unstructured video and algorithmically synchronizes these videos to music in the same or similar manner as Smule's Synch Technology."

Some of the quotes and actions by your former boss leave a bad taste in my mouth, but if the AV synchronization is indeed similar to their own or developed using their resources, they will have a strong case that you've breached your contract.

[1] Found here, thanks to codingdave: http://webaccess.sftc.org/Scripts/Magic94/mgrqispi94.dll?APP...

[AnimalMuppet]

I've seen this kind of stunt before, in the SCO v. IBM lawsuit. Your defense is to get the court to require the other side to state specifically what they think you stole, or to drop the claim.

The law is on your side here. Vague claims aren't a part of a valid lawsuit. "Failure to state a claim actionable at law" may be the phrase you need.

But what you really need is lawyers, and IANAL.

[mikeshreds]

Yes, thoughtful response, our lawyers are looking into this very strategy.

[joshuahutt]

Unless it's part of your legal strategy, it's probably not advisable to discuss your strategy publicly, before or during legal proceedings.

[sandworm101]

"Ideas" isn't a form of IP that can be stolen. Did you patent anything? Have you appropriately protected these ideas to qualify for any sort of tradesecret protections?

(ps. Don't answer. This is the sort of thing to be discussed with an attorney behind a closed door.)

[ClintEhrlich]

That's not quite accurate: "Ideas" cannot be patented or copyrighted, but they can be protected by contract.

The distinction is who the right to the idea is enforceable against. A patent represents a government enforced monopoly that bars anyone from using the specific intellectual property, whereas a contractual right to an idea can only be enforced against the other party to the agreement.

In California, the seminal case is the Supreme Court's decision in Desny v. Wilder, which held that a screenwriter could enforce a studio's promise not to use one of his ideas without his consent. The Court's reasoning was that while a party is free to come up with its own ideas, the disclosure of someone else's idea confers a benefit. Federal courts have addressed this issue a lot in a line of cases holding that Desny claims are not preempted by the Copyright Act.

I haven't been involved in any cases where the alleged theft of an idea involved an employment contract, but I see no reason why the same principles would not apply. Logically, an employer should be able to disclose propriety ideas to its employees without fear that they will be stolen, regardless of whether the ideas are sufficiently novel to qualify for an exclusive federal monopoly.

[sandworm101]

I said that ideas were not IP, not one of the recognized forms of intellectual property rights. Everyone is of course free to invent new concepts via contract, but that only creates obligations between the parties. Any dispute will be governed by contract law, not IP. Nobody outside the agreement will be bound.

The classic case in this area is Warner-Lambert v. Reynolds 178 F. Supp. 655 (1959). (It's about a contract covering the formula for Listerine)

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/17...

[josaka]

Some "ideas" are, if they qualify as trade secrets (think Coke's formula). Other's are free to reverse engineer those ideas, but a former employer/vendor/customer exposed to those ideas under an NDA can come after you for misappropriating their qualifying ideas.

[chrismcb]

Coke's formula is not an "idea"

[x3n0ph3n3]

Ideas aren't property and can't be stolen or owned. Only implementations of ideas via copyright and patents are (and maybe should) be protected.

[nitrogen]

There is also the concept of a trade secret.

[jheriko]

> On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here?

IANAL, and esp. I am not from the US so I don't really have a good grasp of the spirit of the law there (except that from the outside it is constantly surprising and scary!)

however, here in the UK i have some experience, esp because i want to ship software which directly competes with my previous employers in the future...

one thing to remember is that working somewhere enables you to gain knowledge about their workings and that the employer allows this at the time for its own benefit and not for yours.

its very difficult to prove/disprove if this happened though, and the contract signed when working there might turn out to be critical. whilst non-compete clauses are frequently so poorly written that they can never be enforced, the precedent here (in the UK) is that if you want to be safe and be able to point at past cases in defense then you do not compete for two years, poach employees, nor compete on your former employer's doorstep geographically. afaik there have been zero successful claims by employers if these criteria have been met...

remember this can be anything, from having beers on friday, to using a particular software for time-keeping - all the way through the the source code that you are so willing to allow to be searched. if you want better luck with this approach of being open - open every thing up, not just the code, but the working practices, software used, internal hierarchy, which cleaning company you use... everything.

on the other hand i know plenty of companies started by (naive) people who left and started immediately with their buddies from an old job and directly competed with their former employer within a year, using knowledge and skills that they improved on the job. they meant no harm and felt that what they were doing was fair, but imo they took an incredible risk by not researching what has happened in the past with such cases, and are lucky to have gotten away with it.

i hope this goes well for you. be ready for the media and naive readers to not read the detail of what has been written, and instead to slam you for nicking code to start up a company.

[mikeshreds]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Relevantly, Shred Video doesn't even compete directly with Smule for customers. Smule is building a network of karaoke singers and aspiring music enthusiasts to create music together. Shred Video is building technology to help athletes and adventure travelers make movies.

For example, it's unimaginable that a user would consider Smule apps and Shred Video to be competing substitutes that solve a similar need. She'd literally be choosing between "do I want to use this Smule app to sing karaoke songs or play guitar with, or do I want to use this Shred Video app to make a movie from my snowboarding footage?"

[289375223]

Why would you need to go to these lengths (waiting 2 years and competing in a different geogrpahical region)? What have you done wrong by making a competitor to your previous companies product? I ask this because I am thinking of doing something similar due to the fact that my employer is extremely incompetent. I am the only developer of a project that I helped take from no revenue to hundreds of thousands of dollars revenue but that should be making millions of dollars revenue. Unfortunately, I am micro-managed and often just have to implement the ridiculous ideas of my boss.

If I made a competitor, it would obviously share some of the same ideas as the current project. I mean, every social network has an "add friend" function, for example. Some things are just the right way to do things, or inherently part of the business domain.

If they started patenting all of my ideas, I would expect to actually be paid a decent salary.

[annnnd]

<IANAL> It depends mostly on non-competing clause in your contract with them. Unless you steal their code (even if you wrote it, it's theirs!) I don't think they can sue you for using "their" ideas. </IANAL>