[pjlegato]

> I guess they think typical business is like Google or Amazon or something.

Exactly. Many in the EU imagine that "business owner" is a synonym for "evil capitalist plutocrat." For them, if you are not someone's employee, you are by definition rich. Questions of scale are ignored.

[PythonicAlpha]

I don't think, that so many (at least educated) people in the EU believe that ... but the problem is (and I saw evidence for that again and again), that the politicians like to talk about the "Founder culture" or that they want to aid smaller businesses ... but in fact, they do the absolute opposite.

I see that, because at least in Germany (where it is very chic in the political class to talk how to aid smaller businesses and startups ...!) the tax rules are in favor of the big corporations (they have been changed in the last decades, so the corporations got better and better conditions) ... but of course this relieves for the big ones must be compensated somehow -- so the smaller companies have to pay even more taxes.

The current VATMOSS legislation is also a good example: It was announced to be a means to counter the fact that bigger corporations like Amazon avoid VAT by having subsidiaries in Luxembourg. But the biggest problems with the new rulings have now the smaller companies, that never had the chance to open subsidiaries in Luxembourg. For Amazon it is a small drawback and they may have to raise some prices -- but the troubles of other companies are tremendous.

So: The politicians are talking much about smaller companies -- but are only thinking about the bigger ones. And in Germany, many laws are even written by people from the bigger corporations.

[wobbleblob]

I know two people who tried to start a business in Germany and failed, not because of the EU but because of domestic, German rules.

One tried to start some kind of innovative form of pharmacy (the details weren't clear to me), but found himself unable to join the pharmacy guild, and apparently it is illegal to start a business without joining the guild. The other tried to start a bed & breakfast business, but the 'breakfast' part was closed down indefinitely when the food safety inspection found he didn't have the right license for a Sandwichtoaster. Apparently there are different regulations for serving a hot breakfast.

[pluma]

Yes, all professions are regulated. Sadly this has less to do with an overzealous government and more with lobbies and accidents of history.

Guilds used to rule all professions in the middle ages and a lot of the regulations are sadly derived from that. This means you can't do certain things without the proper certifications (e.g. if you're a licensed car mechanic or "KFZ-Mechatroniker" that doesn't mean you're also allowed to do paint jobs because for that you'd need to be a licensed "Lackierer").

Likewise, pharmacies and pharmaceuticals in general are heavily regulated, especially with regard to prescription drugs. I think online pharmacies only became legal quite recently (previously most of them operated out of other EU countries, effectively creating a grey market with all the problems that entails for the customers).

What killed your friend's B & B idea was likely the strict requirements for food safety. It's practically impossible to use private kitchens to produce commercial food products and commercial kitchens have to conform to various rules (plus the employees working in them have to obtain the necessary certificates). IMO this is a good thing, but it can of course make easy things (like serving a breakfast in a single bedroom B & B) very difficult.

The huge difference between the US and Germany is that in Germany suing for damages results in compensations that are a fraction of what you see in the US. But at the same time companies are more likely to run into trouble with the authorities before they can harm you and even if you end up with permanent injuries the public healthcare covers them in most cases -- i.e. you're less likely to be harmed and the economic damage of that harm is likely considerably smaller.

But as an employer I have to say some of the regulations, laws and restrictions can be incredibly tedious and annoying. Especially if you're running a very small business.

[PythonicAlpha]

> But as an employer I have to say some of the regulations, laws and restrictions can be incredibly tedious and annoying. Especially if you're running a very small business.

Yea. My impression is (too), that the regulations in Germany are much more harmful to smaller companies than to big corporations. As big corporation, you basically can do very, very much, without being penalized much. In Germany, you always can say, that health costs are covered by the public health insurance. So, it is common, that compensations are small fractures of that which is paid in the US or even no compensations are made.

My feeling is, that German judges are much more reluctant to rule against corporations, as long as their fault can not be proven 110% -- for common people on the other hand, 80% prove are enough most of the time (I remember, that not long ago a young girl was convicted for computer fraud, just because Siemens said, that the 4 digit PIN-system for EC cards was 100% secure -- something we soon later found out, was never true!).

[maze-le]

In germany there is a saying: "If you work independently, you are always with one foot in jail". It is not unreasonable either, because I know of accountants and laywers (ie: people who do this all the time) who sometimes get lost in the jungle of regulations and decrees (European, National, Subnational, Communal, Branch of work, Union/Worker-regulations etc.). It is also no uncommon for some regulations, depending on the type of work, to be mutually exclusive.

I live in germany and I am willing to be independent in the mid-term (~ 2-4 years), but I have major doubts about doing it here...

[wobbleblob]

Look across your north western border. Many people, especially in the tech and creative industries, work as freelancers there. As long as you have no employees other than yourself, it is made very easy.

[PythonicAlpha]

When you look over the borders, maybe (can you be a little more specific, btw?). In Germany, being a freelancer can be a big hassle, again! There is currently again a hunt for so called "Scheinselbstaendige" (Fictious-self-employed) and when they catch you (even when you are really self-employed, they just don't agree with you) you can be held liable for it and have to pay huge compensations. It is even worse, because there are different degrees of it and the situation is every time different. So they have different ways to hold you liable for something, you have not done.

Here a link from a German organization of self-employed people that informs about the current situation and what is planned (it is planned to worsen the situation): (sorry, only in German)

http://www.vgsd.de/kampagne-scheinselbststaendigkeit/

The big corporations, of course, which really use different models to betray the social system and their employed people, they have the lawyers and the tricks to come away with it. And again, they are the reason for this hunt ... because they are searching for ways to cut costs -- the state tries to close the holes that make such things possible -- but currently the only people they hurt, are those that are innocent, because the big corporations are always ahead of the game. And additionally I am not sure, if the politicians are really willing to hurt the real big players, because those have so much power -- so they merely show "actionism" and make laws that are ineffective or even hurt innocent people.

At the end (if by intention or just stupidity), they hurt the country ... but we Germans still vote for those people!

[wobbleblob]

I thought north western border was specific enough. It's a smaller, less formal, less regulated copy. The only difficulty I can think of is that you have to prove you worked for more than one customer during a fiscal year if you want to make use of the tax deductions for the self employed.

[maze-le]

Thanks, i'll keep that in mind