[eli_gottlieb]

>If you have an argument against what I've said here, I'd be interested to see it, but I'd rather get something really specific and targeted vs. more of a soapbox.

I don't really have to argue against anything here, because you haven't taken a coherent position. "Freedom" and "collectivism" are not supernatural forces. Reversed right-proprietarianism is not leftism.

When you are willing to acknowledge the differences between and specific points among left-wing ideologies, leftists will be willing to talk to you. When you try to boil everything down to categories like "individualism" or "collectivism" that only make sense within your own ideology - as if your ideology was built into reality rather than something you impose upon your perceptions - rather than attempting to honestly engage others on matters of fact, you are wasting everyone's time.

All you've managed to say is, "Look at all those Democrats and socialists: they're not right-proprietarians! How horrid!"

[javert]

> boil everything down to categories like "individualism" or "collectivism" that only make sense within your own ideology - as if your ideology was built into reality rather than something you impose upon your perceptions

My classifications (e.g. individualism and collectivism) are derived from reality, not imposed on top of them, and are quite reasonable.

edit: I've removed the rest of my original comment that was here, because I can't say anything nice, and so I don't want to say anything at all. In short, I think your last comment is totally unreasonable and off base.