[kup0]

We initially may have seemed to have different ideas of "simplicity", because I certainly agree that if using a framework works for a site, and allows you to re-use code to avoid extra lines (like the extra CSS, jQuery, etc. you mention) then that is the best way to go.

When I said simple, maybe I meant "efficient" instead. I just see a lot of misuse of frameworks where all of the code is thrown in and then barely customized to make it work, and all the extra unused cruft is left in. Basically pages are loading a bunch of stuff that is never actually used...

So I think maybe we were speaking past each other a bit, because I generally agree with you.

The initial post at first seemed a bit hostile, but some of that I think we're inferring- because we're reading our own tone into the text. Also, as you said, it's something you constantly deal with, so I'm sure it's a big point of frustration for you.

When frameworks work to allow you to clean up a codebase or prevent it from becoming the mess you describe, then they definitely make sense. When they cause bloat for no good reason- that's when I have a problem with them.

I guess it all comes down to developer use/misuse of them, not the frameworks themselves, in most cases.