[wtbob]

> Speaking from experience, there are plenty of poor people that are at least as aloof, entitled and rude to service staff as rich people, often times even worse.

Yup. One of my brothers was a waiter for many years in a town where it was easy to tell the lower classes from the upper; it wasn't just common for him to receive no or little tip when he waited on members of the lower classes, it was the rule. In years, I don't believe he could count on one hand the number of times he received more than a dollar (on tabs of tens or hundreds) or a piece of mucus smeared on the receipt (yes, you read that right).

People are people, and many people are jerks. Money or lack of money just gives them different outlets to be jerks.

[milspec]

Japan does this right: nobody tips. Customers pay the restaurant, and the restaurant pays the waiters.

Tipping is one small step away from paying bribes. Don't do it. Don't encourage it. Don't accept it.

[jnbiche]

OK, but this is not Japan, and if you are skipping or skimping on tips here in the US, chances are you're screwing over a relatively poor person. US law allows restaurants to pay waiters and waitresses well below minimum wage, under the assumption that their tips will make up the difference.

But I suspect I'll not convince you.

[lazaroclapp]

How about doing it the other way around? The restaurant includes a fixed percentage charge for the service on all items, announces it prominently, requites waiters to refuse any additional tips.

One can argue that, because the advertised prices would be, say, 18% higher, the restaurant would fail due to customers preferring restaurants with lower advertised prices. But at least the experiment could be run in this case in a more or less ethical manner (costs to the business itself could be absorbed by a speculative insurer that is convinced business will not decrease for that particular restaurant). Might not even matter for really high end restaurants, since they don't advertise prices anyways.

[jnbiche]

Yes, that would be ethical, I believe. In fact, in many restaurants, this is how things are now for tables of 6 or more.

[meestaahjoshee]

If you make less than minimum wage because you're not getting enough tips, your employer is legally supposed to pay you the difference so that you would still make the minimum. Whether places actually abide by those laws is a different story I imagine.

[redblacktree]

While this is true, waiters, particularly in higher-end establishments tend to make much more than minimum. It's small comfort that your manager has to create a floor if you're used to $15/hr and due to some bad tippers you end up at $10/hr for the night.

[greeneggs]

"US law allows restaurants to pay waiters and waitresses well below minimum wage, under the assumption that their tips will make up the difference."

Except on the West Coast... Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Minnesota and Montana all have the same minimum wage for tipped and non-tipped employees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...

[derefr]

If everybody stopped tipping, wouldn't the law change?

It's sort of the same as the problem of automation: the people at the bottom get screwed for a while while the system self-corrects.

[bmelton]

Probably not, because assholes like me make it a point to tip anyone who does me any personal service, even when abroad, and even when it isn't of a profession that typically demands it.

I don't know why I do it, and I don't really attempt to justify it beyond "This guy did something nice for me and made me believe he enjoyed it, so that is worth at least something" mixed with not wanting to worry about whether or not a tip is expected.

Apologies if I'm screwing up life for everybody else. I do at least pocket tips when I'm told that they aren't required/desired/expected/wanted, but I would much rather err on the side of over-tipping than under.

[hueving]

Yes, your behavior is insulting in many cultures and is the reason we even have a law in the US that allows minimum wage exceptions for waiters. Over-tipping is worse than under-tipping on a macro scale.

[bmelton]

This might be news, but I'm pretty sure that most people, when they receive a larger than expected cash tip just lie about it and pocket the difference.

Otherwise, sorry that my immoderation has caused so much irreparable harm. Regardless, I'm not likely to change until/unless the system is changed.

[Ollinson]

And when the system inevitably doesn't self-correct it just turns out that the people at the bottom get screwed. Nothing new there.

[everyone]

Most developed countries have a minimum hourly wage. Here in Ireland for example it would be illegal to pay someone less. I still tip the pizza delivery guy though. I guess cus they are providing a service directly to me. I suppose pizaa delivery is a pretty low paying job and I have a pretty cool decently paying job so I'm just being nice.

[tptacek]

OK, but then don't eat at restaurants in the US.

[wpietri]

For me, there are two big differences.

One, I'm more willing to forgive those with less privilege for errors of ignorance or misplaced reactions to trauma. Part of what privilege gets you is space to learn and to work our your issues.

Two, poor people can't afford to buy much in the way of service, so their ability to mistreat other poor people is limited. The richer the person, though, the more personal service they can consume, and the more power they have over those workers.

[protomyth]

No. Just no. Poor or rich, if you go out then human decency is a requirement. If you go out, have the cash for the tip. Justifying poor behavior because someone is poor or rich relieves them of personal responsibility. My family was poor for a while, and I was always taught to respect people[1].

1) unless they became a danger or acted like fools, then protect everyone else from them

[wpietri]

If I were justifying bad behavior, that would be a reasonable concern. Good thing I'm not.

Yes, one should always tip. But my brother, who was a waiter for many years, was very tolerant of poor people from subcultures where tipping was uncommon or mysterious. Accepting that not everybody can yet play at your level isn't justifying bad behavior.

[hueving]

Tipping is poor behavior. It's a disgusting practice in the US that really kills the experience.