[pags]

This sort of "complexity" (DI, ORM, extensive configuration) has existed for a long time, particularly in the Java webapp space.

You don't need a license to release a framework, and a framework doesn't have to be sensical to be adopted.

If you learn the fundamentals of the things you're working with, particularly HTTP, web browsers, the web in general, and your chosen programming languages, things will become much more clear.

[mr_nobody]

It's not that these things are not clear for me, I build many successful applications using these technologies. Also in the past I was really happy using them, but lately I started to realise that it's usually just increase the time we need to spend building applications. I can't see what really I get in return. Especially debugging this kind of application is also hard, as we can not just set breakpoints in yml file.

[rev_bird]

> I started to realise that it's usually just increase the time we need to spend building applications.

This might be because I'm not building anything that's going to blow the doors off of the internet, but I've found having at least a casual familiarity with a few frameworks (Django is the first that pops into my head, though you may be talking about .JS stuff) has made prototyping, at least, far simpler. Building a basic Python CRUD app from scratch, depending on what you're trying to do, could take, I'd guess, two weeks to get something* up and running. With Django, you could absolutely have your basic front-end and admin interface done in a day.

Once you get into the tricky bits (or just bumping against the edges of the Django database abstraction layer), yeah, I can see how it's annoying -- is that more what you're talking about with the "we can not just set breakpoints in yml file" bit? That setting up models by hand is more predictable than letting the framework do it?

[noobermin]

I think an important part of this question is who is making you use such frameworks in the first place?

[mr_nobody]

Usually when I join company there is some big framework there, and bunch of people who jerk off to the new hype framework in given language. Companies believes it's best solution, because when they send people to conferences they see bunch of other people jerking to the same frameworks. I don't like on small projects with 1-2 developers and these days its the only solution to have normal environment.