[Bonsanto]

I live in Venezuela and item's prices are raising horrible, let me tell you something I am electrical engineer and computer engineer, and my salary is only 10.3$/month, ridiculous, but his is how socialism works everyone are equalized but to poverty. To buy a car in Venezuela you need to save money for 50 years without buying food supplies, to buy a house it takes 200 years, to buy dollars you need to be a friend of Maduro, my most bright colleagues have left the country so I am.

[loblollyboy]

seems to work just fine in scandinavia

[BurningFrog]

According to the libertarian Cato Institute's Human Freedom Index, Sweden, Denmark and Finland are in the top 10 freest countries on earth. The US is at place 20 and Venezuela at 144 out of 152.

http://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index http://www.cato.org/economic-freedom-world

Scandinavia has very free market open economies coupled with extensive welfare states financed by high taxes. You can call that socialism if you want, but it is a very different system than the criminal tragedy that is Venezuela.

[sillygeese]

> Scandinavia has very free market open economies coupled with extensive welfare states financed by high taxes.

That's a contradictory statement. High taxes represent a high level of intervention in the economy/market, which is the opposite of a free market.

It's not "working" in Scandinavia either, by the way.

There's a limit to how much you can intervene in your economy before it collapses. We're just not as far along the path as Venezuela.

[cb18]

Human Freedom Index, Sweden, Denmark and Finland are in the top 10 freest countries on earth.

I guess that metric is derived from formal, and institutional freedom or non-freedom promoting policies, but unfortunately, in some respects Sweden is looking increasingly out of place in such a high position on that list.

Anybody who points out that the country's immigration policies are close to destroying the country faces harsh backlash. Anybody just raising questions on the matter really.

Disturbingly, there has been some recent talk of actual formalized anti-freedom measures.

A couple weeks ago there was a stabbing and beheading attack at an IKEA store that killed a mother and son, and now some people in the govt are making noises about limiting freedom of the press because people are discussing it online.

I guess their main concern, according to them is that it is such a shocking, horrific, and in your face illustration of how insane the Swedish government's immigration policies are, that they are concerned people might exercise their democratic rights of guiding the government in what they see as a reasonable direction.

The Press Ombudsman Ola Sigvardsson is concerned that the Swedes are turning to sites run by political motives rather than journalistic ambitions.

Traditional journalism is characterized by a willingness to unconditional search for the truth and make it as good as possible. The other sites are characterized by having a political agenda, said Ola Sigvardsson.

So apparently, now that there is such glaring evidence of the need for political change Sigvardsson is interested in restricting any political discussion that are not inline with his own views.

Freedom of speech and freedom of the press is something that we can not take for granted. Politicians give us the right to print and give our opinion, but requires that we do so in a responsible manner. If we do not do it, maybe freedom curtailed, says Ola Sigvardsson.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev...

[emp_zealoth]

It is utterly terrifying (in Europe), the right is edging on fascism here(bible thumping, xenohobic, spiteful), the left is so high on "Political Correctness" (you literally cannot adress real problems because that is "homophobic", "patriarchic", "antisemitic", etc) What the hell is going on...

[kjs3]

What problems do you anticipate being able to solve with homophobia, patriarchy and antisemitism?

[BurningFrog]

> there has been some recent talk of actual formalized anti-freedom measures

This is the kind of things that worry people in the top freest countries.

In the lower ranked countries there is far more than talk about such things going on.

[cb18]

That's a fine point, it is basically a tautology though, and certainly doesn't mean we should ignore this kind of thing, lest the top free countries go the way of the less free.

What I find most disturbing about this guy's rhetorik is that he says "Politicians give us the right," when that is exactly opposite how things are understood to work in modern democracies. The people give their consent to politicians and by extension the government to govern.

[BurningFrog]

Yeah, I'm not saying you should ignore it. Only that compared to real life international freedom levels, it is a minor problem.

[kryptiskt]

All the countries in Scandinavia are capitalistic. There is welfare, yes, but you'll find less government involvement in the economy than in the US (example: the US government rescued GM, the Swedish government told SAAB Automobile to take a hike).

[ersii]

Please elaborate on how the Swedish State told SAAB Automobile to "take a hike". Sounds quite suspicious.

[kryptiskt]

SAAB Automobile (not to be confused with the defense manufacturer) was bought from GM by Victor Mueller's Dutch company. When they ran into trouble and declared bankruptcy the government declined to do anything to save it and sacrificed some thousands of jobs in Trollhättan rather than to prop it up.

[chvid]

Scandinavian countries run nothing like Venezuela.

So sad to see a beautiful country and people run into the ground by a corrupt regime.

[meatysnapper]

False analogy. You should say "Seems to work fine in Chile". Chile and Venezuela are similar countries; both have an abundant natural resource (copper vs oil).

The one critical difference is property rights- such a thing does not exist in Venezuela. Say what you will about Pinochet...

[xienze]

It always works until it doesn't. Sweden will have a particularly tough time in coming years.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I don't think that's so clear. But even if it's true, "works until it doesn't" is probably the best thing that can be said of any political/economic system to date. Free market capitalism has its own problems and its flagship country, the US, is increasingly considered to be in decline.

[xienze]

> I don't think that's so clear.

Yes, it is clear. When you have a system in place that is predicated on having enough productive citizens to support the non-productive ones and your birth rates have fallen off a cliff you're in for trouble.

> Free market capitalism has its own problems and its flagship country, the US, is increasingly considered to be in decline.

Never said the US doesn't have problems. Just pointing out that socialism also has its own problems. No economic system is perfect.

[yongjik]

Quite to the contrary, when you have a system where "non-productive" citizens are not supported, you stifle innovation, because people don't (can't) take chances when one misstep will lead them into inescapable poverty.

Inefficiencies develop across the system because people can't afford to make a change. Firing people or shutting down a factory becomes a massive struggle of life and death, frequently with literal deaths. (If unemployment means your family's livelihood is at stake, you wouldn't just walk away, would you?)

Source: grew up in a country like that.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

> When you have a system in place that is predicated on having enough productive citizens to support the non-productive ones and your birth rates have fallen off a cliff you're in for trouble.

Every country with falling birth rates has that problem, regardless of the political/economic system. Barring extremist solutions like euthanasia, you need to support non-productive citizens and the resources for it need to come from productive citizens in some way, be it with government intervention or not.

[xienze]

> Barring extremist solutions like euthanasia, you need to support non-productive citizens and the resources for it need to come from productive citizens in some way, be it with government intervention or not.

Agreed with the first point. Ultimately though, if you can't generate enough revenue to support the social safety nets something has to give (the old Thatcher quote "socialism works until you run out of other people's money to spend" applies here). The problem with incredibly generous (read: expensive) social programs like Scandinavian countries offer is that the day of reckoning will come much sooner.

[dev360]

Finland is probably worse off because their immigration policy is much more restrictive. I think some of the thinking goes that the immigration policy should mitigate the aging concerns. As for socialist policies, at least we get a hell of a lot for our the money here. In the US, it seems to just go down the drain in war spending and everything else the US gov touches is FUBAR; e.g. education, healthcare etc.

[cb18]

Sweden will have a particularly tough time in coming years.

That time is already here, let's hope a change of course can be made soon.

Sweden's irresponsibility and malfeasance should really be of concern to the whole world, as in some ways the country has become like Afghanistan under Taliban rule, in the providing of a safe-haven for and cultivation of terrorists. (yes, that sounds crazy, and it is, but it is the conclusion one must draw unfortunately)

Sweden has a revolving door for terrorists. Literal terrorists are moving in and out of the country unchecked. It is absolutely insane.

An in addition to that, Sweden has become a hugely fertile breeding ground for ISIS fighters.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/23/from_the_welfare_state_t...

----------

...we found links to terrorism or intelligence threats, which we judged that the person should not be granted asylum in Sweden. Then it is up to the Immigration Bureau to weigh that risk against the right to asylum. Many remain in the country,” Sjöö remarked. Excuse me? Oh yes. In this country, even an internationally red-flagged terrorist can be granted asylum. By the bizarre Swedish logic, a person at risk of “inhumane” treatment or death sentence in his home country qualifies for protection.

And as for terrorists? Open doors and open hearts. Here’s an article from neighboring Denmark(http://www.dagens.dk/udland/mist%C3%A6nkte-terrorister-f%C3%...) where they, for good reason, express grave concern over the extreme naivitee of Swedish immigration policy. At least 20 internationally known terrorists were granted asylum in Sweden in 2014 alone, which is a problem for Denmark too considering its capital Copenhagen being only 20 minutes away from Malmö, one of the immigrant hotbeds. The capital of European ISIS recruitment remains Gothenburg, however. Sweden’s second largest town produces more ISIS-fighters than the entire United States. This baffling statement sounds made up, but it it’s not.(http://swedenreport.org/2015/02/04/more-isis-fighters-from-o...)

“A pantry full of cannon fodder for ISIS”(http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article20427940.ab) is the headline of this remarkably frank (by Swedish standards) article about the muslim-dominated no-go zones around Gothenburg. The headline is an actual quote by one of the residents of the area. I encourage you to use the translate-feature in your browser and read the article in its entirety for a chilling insight into the total meltdown of societal control of these areas.

----------

^

http://swedenreport.org/2015/03/23/sweden-facing-systemic-co...

http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-g...

There does appear to be some growing sanity in the electorate though.

http://www.thelocal.se/20150820/swedens-nationalists-lead-po...

[dev360]

I think a lot of Swedes feel divided on this subject. The vast majority of for instance Syrians and Iraqis that are seeking refuge here are escaping essentially islamofascism. Beheadings, bombings, kidnappings, sectarian violence and what have you..

Put yourself in that situation for a second. I really resent Islam as a religion because its at odds with our culture and values, but I'm willing to let go of that resentment in the hopes of helping some of these people. And hopefully the 2nd or 3rd generation of these immigrants will be completely absorbed and integrated into Swedish way of life. If you escape that kind of situation, at the ending of the day, a normal person would feel some gratitude to the country that took them in.

Either way, this policy is a stark contrast with what the utopian US "freedom" policy has done for that region, but of course, it not without its rough edges.

[nextos]

Why?

[xienze]

Sweden in particular? Like the rest of Europe, absolutely dismal birth rates and an aging population. Sweden is also particularly gung-ho about granting citizenship to any and everyone who shows up. That places additional strain on the system as the people showing up are a net drain on finances.

[cb18]

Sweden will have a particularly tough time in coming years.

Why?

Sweden is already in pretty bad shape due to immigration. But a large part of the govt, and dominant information channels are intent on concealing that fact as much as possible for some reason, hard for some people to admit they were wrong I guess.

Shockingly enough, Sweden leads the world in rape and school arson.

Informative report on the horrible rape numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGedOGCrnQ

Last year the cost for fires in Sweden’s schools ended at about SEK one billion. 457 schools burned in 2009. About half of the fires were caused by arson. However, compared with 2008 fires in schools has decreased, that year 512 schools burned, also then half of them caused by arson.

http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=5029

(Saying in both years that only half of that already large number were caused by arson seems a little suspect, that seems like a high rate for schools to be combusting from other factors. Well, maybe they are counting chemistry lab mishaps and the like, and the bulk of the cost is coming from schools actually being burned down in arson attacks.)

“I don’t know why anybody would want to burn our school,” Ms. Bromster said. “I can’t understand it. Maybe they are not so happy with life.”

The riots are not unprecedented here. In 2008 and 2010, immigrants clashed with the police in the southern port city of Malmo. But the past week’s arson attacks in Stockholm, the capital, and the spectacle of teenagers hurling stones at firefighters have left many Swedes wondering what went wrong in a society that has invested so heavily in helping the underprivileged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/world/europe/swedens-riots...

[nextos]

I had heard of this when living in DK, but never thought it had gone so bad.