[seibelj]

I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it.

These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't make you work through your vacation. This isn't North Korea, Bezos isn't going to throw you in a reeducation camp.

I will keep ordering from Amazon because they provide the best service. Simple as that.

[zamalek]

I'm not advocating or rejecting the Amazon boycott, simply here to challenge the way you think: while everything you said is logical you can't simply treat people like trash, it doesn't matter if they are white collar, gold collar or can't-afford-a-collar.

A situation that shares many similarities is: "it is that woman's fault that she does not leave her abusive husband." That is laying blame on the person who was abused (not matter their background) instead of the person dealing out the injustice.

Imagine that Bezos had not disowned this behavior: more and more would follow suit and eventually you'd be hard-pressed to find a place where this isn't the norm. For example: stack ranking had to start somewhere. Now you'll find it at many places and it's no longer as simple as "just go work somewhere else." If you've acquired a lifestyle where you depend on a corporate job with a cushy salary, what are you going to do?

Don't forget that people can (and do) undervalue themselves. Maybe they don't believe that they could find another job: possibly because their manager has completely destroyed their self-worth.

Finally, it's just fucking stupid. It's actually counter-productive. It's been shown over and over again (one example[1]) that the way you get better results out of humans is to treat them humanely and, unbelievably, make them want to work for you instead of work for you out of fear. Practices like this, stack ranking, etc. all originate out of the industrial age when machines were the primary concern - you can't manage humans like machines: they will revolt (consciously or subconsciously).

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

[XorNot]

Even if you haven't acquired a lifestyle. It's not like things get better when management adopts some new terrible practice for non-salaried employees. By and large they live day to day stack-ranking all sorts of far more abusive BS.

[atopuzov]

Some people signed the contract thinking it's a decent place to work but found out later it's not. They received relocation bonus (which they have to return if they leave within 2 years), left their previous job, are now in a country where there visa depends on being employed by Amazon so things are not as black and white as you would like to represent them and they just can't leave as easily as some. It's not slavery, but it's not far from indentured servitude.

P.S. I'm not in that situation but have a few colleagues who are, and going back to Ukraine for them is not an option.

[nilkn]

I really do not think that someone being well-paid is justification for treating them poorly. Surely an employee should just be treated well, period. I actually think your line of thinking here is incredibly dangerous -- you seem to think that if someone is well-paid it's okay to treat them like dirt, as if you have to balance things out somehow.

And regardless of how well-paid any of them may or may not be (keep in mind these are not just the developers), they all might have made real sacrifices in their lives to work for Amazon without realizing what they were getting into. Quitting a beloved former job for what appeared to be a much needed pay raise, moving cross country with your family, etc...

I'm not boycotting anything but everyone has a right to be upset when they're mistreated.

[a_c_s]

Workers, white-collar or not, are seldom sold a job with full information: working through vacation isn't the kind of thing mentioned in job postings.

I don't think anyone should be forced to work through their vacation: that's why it is called vacation. If you don't want people to take vacation then don't offer it, but offering vacation "in name only" is the worst of all possible worlds.

I want to live in a world where companies treat their workers well and therefore I don't want to patronize companies that willfully and systemically dehumanize them.

[netcan]

Implied in your comment is that employees (assuming they are employable white collar employees) are empowered economic actors. They keep choosing to work there.

I think the reality of the employee-employer relationship is that employees don't have the sort of power, as one would have as a customer, for example. Part of the reasons are probably explainable economically. It's a fairly illiquid market for employees because the cost of getting to an agreement, negotiating terms (never-mind sampling) is very high. A lot of other reasons are probably best explained psychologically or anthropologically, roles we assume in certain situations. I suspect these are the bigger ones. Either way, barriers are there and bad treatment of employees often results in badly treated employees, not empty just resignations.

In a lot of ways, "if you don't like it, get another job" like "if you don't like it, get another country."

The free exchange economistic-ey forces are there, but they are not the only things there. Other things that make employers behave better is standards set by society. These are laws, but also just norms and practices. These are impacted by things like articles or consumer responses.

It's complicated.

I'm fairly sympathetic to a lot of libertarian positions. But, I don't buy into the strong economic rationalist arguments.

Economic forces dictate how some things play out. other times, other cultural forces take effect. When it comes to employee treatment, I think societal norms are a massive influence. The reaction you are observing is part a mechanism for this. Society's scolding amazon for treating its employees badly, defining and enforcing the nom..

[chaostheory]

> In a lot of ways, "if you don't like it, get another job" like "if you don't like it, get another country."

There are big differences between the two unless you live in a state that borders Canada. In most cases, getting a new job does not require you to relocate far away or significantly change your lifestyle.

> It's a fairly illiquid market for employees because the cost of getting to an agreement, negotiating terms (never-mind sampling) is very high.

Is this cost higher than staying miserable? About the only thing I can think of for being forced to stay employed with Amazon is to complete the "two year tour of duty" for your resume.

I'd agree with you more if we were discussing uneducated and unskilled workers. However unless I missed something I feel that we were talking about skilled and educated workers that are in demand by many companies.

That said I'm not condoning any company that has bad practices and I'm still sympathetic to anyone that gets poorly treated at any company, while at the same time I feel that staying with a company that makes you unhappy as an highly in demand worker is a conscious choice you make as an adult. I don't feel that most people have work contracts. Employment is at will for both the employer and employee.

[amirmc]

That reasoning could also be applied to anyone who's suffering in an abusive relationship (whether emotional or physical). It would be inappropriate then, just as it's inappropriate here.

In addition, not everything has to be decided solely by where one spends their money. It's entirely possible to put pressure on an organisation through other means.

[seibelj]

This isn't a man who is beating his wife. The employee doesn't have the social pressure to stay with someone they married rather than face the shame of divorce. The employee doesn't have a part of them that is literally in love with the abuser (a company).

It's a stretch to use the 'abused spouse' argument with highly educated knowledge workers making 6 figure salaries. Find a new job.

[nilkn]

> The employee doesn't have the social pressure to stay with someone they married rather than face the shame of divorce.

Actually, workplaces like this tend to thrive on social pressure and psychological manipulation. The NYT article paints a picture in which people begin undergoing brainwashing on day one. A workplace can most definitely create a very powerful culture of internal shaming.

That said, leaving an abusive relationship is still likely to be harder, for a few reasons. First, there's true love involved -- no employee was ever truly in love with Amazon. Second, there are logistical reasons -- it's probably easier to quit Amazon and find another job than it is for many people to leave an abusive relationship and get back on their own independent feet.

But I think it's still dangerous to underestimate the social pressures that a large corporation can create.

[drzaiusapelord]

>Most of them could easily find another job someplace else

Not too long ago we laughed at open offices and tiny cubes with half or quarter height walls as just desserts for low wage workers like call center operators. After all, if they wanted better conditions they should make themselves more marketable. Now coders are having to deal with these punishing layouts due to them being a current executive fad.

Now every executive at every company is buying into this "treat them like shit" philosophy. Between this and H1B visa abuse, where exactly do domestic workers flee to? You can work for company X with a crappy culture or company Y with a crappy culture. Illusion of choice isn't choice.

[inversionOf]

Terrible working conditions have been the norm for many coders for as long as there has been coding. In the late 90s, Joel Spolsky rose by being a contrarian and advocating good work conditions. Microsoft was always held as an extreme outlier with its good conditions. Everyone was agape about the .com bubble because companies were giving employees nice chairs (which in retrospect seems absurd...something so minor as a signal of excess).

The point, I suppose, is that our own information funnels often mislead us into trends and "averages", when it's just cycles.

[drzaiusapelord]

Maybe, but I'm probably a lot older than your average HN'er and I remember my first few jobs. Everyone had an office. The sysadmin had one, the developers each had one, the manager did, etc. Or at the very least had a proper full size cube with proper size walls. There was an emphasis of privacy and quiet time because everyone needed to concentrate to get shit done. Walking into IT was like walking into a library.

10+ years ago was the last time I saw IT staff in offices outside of management or even a proper full sized, full walled cube.

[hga]

Indeed, I myself started working in 1980 and it sure seems like it was better then, but I can't isolate that from working in the Boston area until its high tech scene finished dying a hard death in the early '90s (the web created a new one a little later) and I moved to the D.C. area which you might say didn't have as high standards.

[andersonmvd]

It's not just a matter of whether it looks like North Korea or not, it's a matter of what kind of companies you want to see out there. You may approve it or not, and you can respond to it. One way to respond is to stop ordering from Amazon.

[cowardlydragon]

I will keep ordering from McDonalds because their food is the cheapest while still tasting good.

I will keep buying gasoline from Alberta Tar Sands and fracking because it is the cheapest at powering my motor vehicle.

I will keep getting my marijuana from a mexican drug cartel because it is more potent and cheaper than from other sources.

... way to be the rational economic actor who gives zero shits about externalities and hard-to-measure but obviously occurring consequences. Good job, dude.

[supercanuck]

Honestly, I would need to see white collar women shackled to computers in dilapidated warehouses on 60 minutes before I had to give up 2 Day Shipping, and even then I'd probably convince myself that the exposure means change is happening and start using again

[knightofmars]

To those who have down voted this comment, you down vote this comment for being distasteful without recognizing the reality and honesty its perspective provides.

[leftnode]

Unless you're on a visa and having a job is a requirement of keeping said visa.

[seibelj]

That is the same situation at any company with H1B's, and I didn't see anything in the article that mentioned abuse of those workers specifically.

[wtetzner]

The point is it's not so easy to leave in that situation.

[ClayM]

or if you work in one of the warehouses

[pdabbadabba]

I don't plan to boycott either, but I can see why others do. Whether Amazon's employees are white collar or not, and whether or not they freely choose to work there, I still find it morally objectionable for Amazon to treat their employees the way that they apparently do.

Of course this is not as bad as taking advantage of desperate, low-skill workers, or taking advantage of lax labor standards abroad. But white-collar Amazon workers are still people and the managers at Amazon still owe them at least some duty to not willfully make their lives miserable.

(And, by the way, there are also stories out there about Amazon's treatment of lower-skilled, less "free" warehouse employees, etc. which would, I think, be better cause for boycott if true. But that's really a different subject.)

[comrh]

I just think they shouldn't act like such jerks and treat employees like human beings who are on your team. Sure they have the ability to leave, I'm just trying to support better behavior though.

[aikah]

> I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it.

Well it's because the people who are Amazon customers can relate these white collars being "harassed" at Amazon. It's because of a lot of these customers might have lived the same situation and know how horrible this is.

[crag]

You know, what makes you think people have such mobility? It's not easy to just "go find another job".

You married, got kids, you can't afford to go find another job. At least not quickly. And quietly. Cause if your manager finds out your interviewing (and it's a small world) you're dead.

I don't suppose you live outside the bubble? It's a different world in say, Kansas.

[Rainymood]

>I will keep ordering from Amazon because they provide the best service. Simple as that.

I will keep buying from clothes from Primark because they provide the cheapest. Simple as that.

...