[protomyth]

The New York Post has just reported that Brooklyn Assembly Members Annette Robinson [D.-Bedford Stuyvesant] and Darryl Towns [D.-East New York] have introduced a "minimum force" bill that would require officers to "shoot a suspect in the arm or the leg" and to use firearms "with the intent to stop, rather than kill."

This is what happens when people think TV and movies are an accurate representation of reality. Beyond the problem of police not getting enough firearms training in the first place, it just isn't possible to shoot anything other than center mass with any hope in hell of hitting with a handgun for the average officer.

This is almost as stupid as thinking a taser is non-lethal. Getting hit by a taser can kill people. New research into low lethality weapons for police would be great, but I'm not holding out much hope given the funding.

Perhaps we can stop with the fantasy and start concentrating on things like over use of SWAT, actual police oversight, and liability of the chain of command. On the other side, stop demonizing police before the facts are in.

[remarkEon]

Agreed. Been shooting in the military since 2006, and I just left the active duty Army after 5+ years. Was an Infantry Platoon leader...been to a bunch of shooting courses...This idea that you can "shoot to wound" is just not based in reality. Like, at all. Shoot someone in the leg, huh. Better not hit that femoral! They'll bleed out in ~2, maybe 3 minutes, depending. Better practice your tourniquet. Watch your background, too, because if you miss that leg/arm you don't wanna hit anything else that bleeds.

One thing I've noticed in watching videos of police recently is that they seem really quick to draw their weapons on a target.

Perhaps that's where we should start, with this assumption that citizens are constant, dynamic threats and that cops, when out on patrol, only exist in a constant high-threat environment. Idk. I'm not a cop, but this place has to be safer than Afghanistan.

[protomyth]

"One thing I've noticed in watching videos of police recently is that they seem really quick to draw their weapons on a target."

That is what scares me along with the use of SWAT. I would love to have stats on drawn weapons per encounter through the year (yeah, pipe dream). I'm not sure its more frequent or we just have a ton more video. My brother had a gun drawn on him by a young highway patrol officer while he was stranded by the side of the road putting a new belt in his car. His first knowledge of the officer was hearing the clicking of the gun. He and the person with him (standing on the engine push down on the alternator with a 2x4 so they could slip the belt on) were not amused.

[branchan]

I agree that we should reconsider what situations call for the use of a SWAT team. But when that situation arises, it's perfectly reasonable for SWAT teams to always have their weapons drawn no?

[protomyth]

Yep. It goes with the definition of what SWAT is supposed to do. The problem is using them to serve warrants and other non-emergency situations. SWAT was formed to deal with a bad situation normal police officers couldn't. Its evolved into a hammer that is overused.

[Daviey]

Then you'll also know that part of the design of the NATO 5.56mm was to wound and not specifically kill.

[remarkEon]

Ehh IIRC, we made a trade off. Stopping power for accuracy. It was not designed to "wound". Actually, I'm not really sure how you'd go about "designing a round to wound".

Perhaps that what rubber pellets are.

[jccooper]

Mostly it was to be cheap, though.

[ende]

Agree. a better solution would be to just eliminate the firearm as standard issue. Most cops dont need to be armed to do their jobs.

[x0054]

How about loading the first round with blanks. Some times just the sound of the shot is enough to startle and stop a suspect. Shooting in the air would be an option too, but it could be a little problematic, as what goes up, must come down. The blank option would also give an officer a split second to maybe rethink his actions. And if the officer really needs to use lethal force, it's easy to quickly squeeze off 2 rounds, with the second one being the real deal.

[remarkEon]

No. From experience, the only other rounds that would go into my magazine were tracer rounds. Additionally, the mechanics of how these weapons work make that not possible.

Edit: Beyond the above, from a tactical perspective...just think through the game theory on that and you'll see why that would be unwise.

[x0054]

Hmm, I am no expert in guns. Is it not possible to use blanks in a standard automatic pistol? I have seen people use blanks in revolvers. Is it because a blank cartridge would be missing the bullet part, so it would be shorter? Just curious.

I suppose that logically speaking, if I know that most cops have a blank loaded as their first shot, logically, I shouldn't be startled by the first shot. But that said, an encounter like that is so traumatic, to both the officer and the suspect, that I hardly think any one in that situation is thinking very logically at the time of the encounter.

[jccooper]

Automatics commonly work on recoil, sometimes on gas pressure. Without a bullet, recoil is less (see Newton's laws) and so is gas pressure (there's no temporary plug in the barrel). Most semi-auto pistols will not operate with blanks unless modified in a way that would make them incompatible with regular ammo.

[x0054]

Ah, interesting. Never mind then, stupid idea on my part :)

[Daviey]

Pistols can use blanks quite happily, both revolvers and the semi-automatic pistol used by most as they use recoil.

I think the issue being raised here is rifles that make use of the pressurised gas produced by the bullet leaving the rifle... as there is nothing to retain the pressure it will not load the next.. Which is why they have 'Blank Firing Adapters' to create the pressure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank-firing_adaptor

[mc32]

That sounds a bit too close to Russian roulette. What happens in the case where you really need to incapacitate rather than warn? But, no you have a blank in there.

This has a likelihood of being a nice idea which in practice makes things worse.

On the other hand, in Germany, dogs are used more widely to stop people who don't need the orders to halt.

[branchan]

That's a terrible idea. Now on top of an already stressful situation, the cop has to remember whether the round that is about to go off is a blank or not. Also if the suspect is quickly approaching the cop, the blank round would only serve to slow down the officer's reaction time.