[relix42]

I've seen quite a few reactions to the Netflix unlimited PTO policy that are similar to the reactions to the new Maternity and Paternity policy. Many of these opinions are the likes of:

* "I'm suspicious of this."

* "No one takes any vacation at Netflix because of this."

* "Unlimited == None"

* "Peer pressure means that everyone works 52 weeks a year."

* "Without a PTO policy you can't cash out unused vacation. This is a rip off."

The thing I haven't seen in these statements are "I work at Netflix and this is what it is really like"...

Here we go - I work at Netflix (as an engineer) and this is what is really like:

* I'm pressured to take vacations.

* Managers are taught that they are examples to the teams therefore they must take regular vacations.

* I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year of stated, paid, vacation.

Questions I've answered about this: * Does my team fall apart when someone leaves for 4 weeks? No. They're adults and they know how to prepare to be away for a while.

* People must raise their eyebrows at you when you leave! No.

* You get called all the time right so you keep your laptop with you on vacation? No. They're adults and they know how to get along without me for a while.

* You must do tons of extra work when people go on vacation! No. People don't just drop stuff and run. They prepare, get stuff ready, postpone things until they're back, etc.

* Managers must "encourage" you not to take vacations. Nope, opposite.

* You feel irresponsible taking time off then. No I don't.

* People must leave for months a time right? The policy gets really abused! No, stop it. Assuming the extreme case must be the common case is silly. You're smarter than that.

* This can't possibly be true. You're a liar/shill/idiot! Next.

* This doesn't/can't work at my company. Therefore, it can't work at yours! Netflix corporate culture is likely very different than your company. Take a look at the culture deck presentation.

This type of policy likely can't work everywhere.

It may not work everywhere in the valley.

It does work here.

[edit] formatting fail

[jms703]

Thanks for posting this. I work at a place with a similar policy and in my experience, it's exactly as you describe.

[shostack]

Thanks for sharing an honest 1st party perspective.

Would you mind clarifying on:

>"I'm pressured to take vacations."

Is that as a result of the following bullet around managers being taught to be a good example? Or is it because the day-to-day is stressful and the average hours are not even close to 9-5 so the pressure to take vacation is to combat burnout? (Not saying that is actually the case at Netflix, but I've heard of other places where the day-to-day was miserable, so they forced vacation to prevent burnout vs. solving the root issue of reducing overall workload, promoting true work/life balance throughout a given week, etc.)

[relix42]

My management chain encourages me to take time away from the office. Vacations, conferences, et al. I determine my workload, so, if the day-to-day is stressful, I need to change something.

[mikeash]

Honest question: why don't people just leave for months at a time? Is it because everyone understands that "unlimited" is actually "one month a year, more or less" or whatever the actual amount is?

[relix42]

I can speak for me and others I know rather well - I like what I do. I enjoy going to work, finding things to fix, and fixing them. There are those things that I don't enjoy doing, but, they're not the majority by a long shot. So, six months away wouldn't be that attractive.

Along with the that, one of the tenets of the business is "Freedom and Responsibility". If you can be responsible taking six months off then you are free to do so. I know people that take 4 weeks off at a time without issue. They plan their projects and commitments, communicate to their team, and make sure they're ready to be out for 4 weeks. Then, they leave for 4 week.

[mikeash]

Maybe that's the difference. No matter how cool the company is (unless it's, say, SpaceX) I have a hard time imagining that the work would be more interesting than whatever I could come up with to do on my own. Which is probably a big part of why I don't work for a big company.

[eevilspock]

Is it possible that in healthy environments where people are valued and value each other as people they are capable of behaving ethically and responsibly?

[mikeash]

What's unethical about taking them at their word that vacation is "unlimited"?

[enraged_camel]

Well, it conflicts for this thing called "work ethic", for one.

[mikeash]

According to my dictionary, work ethic is "the principle that hard work is intrinsically virtuous or worthy of reward." I think only a tiny minority of programmers would hold to that.

[epsylon]

> * I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year of stated, paid, vacation.

And how much is that?

When I worked at a BigCo (in Europe), our holidays amounted to around 10 weeks per year. Senior employees (with more than 10 years) would get even more (around 12). Which means you can take a week off every month. Now that is a lot of holidays. And these were enforced, you had to take all of these (for legal reasons, the company has to either pay the holidays to you, or force you to take them, and most of the time financial reasons dictate that it's better if they don't pay you).

Does unlimited vacation cover that?

[mrep]

This and other things have sold me into applying to netflix. However, looking at your job openings, EVERYTHING has "senior" on it or "director". Literally, go check it out: https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs Does that mean I'm automatically disqualified because I am only just graduating college?

[trunnell]

Netflix employee here.

Titles aren't that important at Netflix, so all engineers have the same title of Senior Software Engineer. (Similarly, there's no Senior Manager or Senior Director titles-- just Manager and Director.)

That said, most roles do require lots of experience. The individual job posts will list the expected number of years.

[jedberg]

> Does that mean I'm automatically disqualified because I am only just graduating college?

You're not automatically disqualified but you probably don't have enough experience, unless you worked a full time job in the past or had some really intense summer internships.

[abalone]

> I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year

So, does that mean you take more than 5 weeks per year?

[relix42]

When I had 5 weeks ago I never took all of it. The environment didn't support it. It was very much the "here are 5 weeks of vacation we hope you won't use".

Now I can a week or two here and there, a few days off, a long weekend, etc. It's my job to plan it out, balance my work, and go. Thinking back on last year (without going over my calendar) I'd estimate I took between 5 and 6 weeks of total time off.

[abalone]

I think the key point you make is that it depends more on the culture/environment than the policy. You can have a 5 week entitlement and still feel pressure not to take it. Or you might be able to take more than 5 weeks by going into "vacation debt" if your manager approves.

There's one distinction though: at least with a minimum entitlement you'll be compensated for unused vacation. (At least that's how it worked at a previous employer of mine.. it might even be the law?) So even if you feel pressure not to take it you'll get a nice payout. Not the case with "unlimited" vacation where nothing's on the books.

[cscurmudgeon]

Plural of anecdote is not data unless you have data :)

Any Netflix-level stats?

[jedberg]

Well I can 100% back up what OP said. So now you have two data points.

And ironically, Netflix doesn't have any data because they don't track vacation time, not even just for data purposes.

The best "data" I can offer is that everyone I knew there took ample vacation except one person, who hated his family and like the excuse of "I have to work".

[eevilspock]

Likewise, are all of these dismissals of Netflix's policy backed by data rather than anecdotes?