[pluma]

> Trying to start them off with a language like Java or C# would be a terrible idea

I'm not sure how you got the idea that I argued for Java or C#. I only mentioned them to rule out the argument that being widely used is a necessary or sufficient quality when determining what language you should teach to a beginner.

In the same vein I think we can also agree that Pascal is a horrible choice although it is still frequently used as an introduction to programming.

[bigtunacan]

No, I think we were on agreement on that point. You said, "If market use were the main concern you could probably argue for Java or C# (although I think starting with a class-based language locks you into the wrong mental model)."

I took your main argument to be that Ruby is a bad first language to teach kids and Python is a good first language to teach kids.

I was agreeing with you on Java/C# not being a good choice. I disagree with your opinion on Ruby being a bad first choice. I thought your argument was also that Python was a good (better than Ruby) choice. I actually agree that Python is ALSO a good first choice to teach children with; I do not believe it is a better choice than Ruby; rather I would say they are equally well suited.