So does that mean we can finally stop listening to Cringely altogether? I am an IBM employee and I can tell you a lot of my fellow IBMers had a really bad week-end because of his ridiculous claims.
I don't think today's IBM ever planned to layoff 110k at once.
Lay off 10k here, 10k there, call one a workforce restructuring, another "an innovation related rebalancing plan", blah blah blah.
It seems highly unlikely to me that IBM would just up and lay off 110k workers. Ignoring any other issues, the political blowback and PR blowback they'd get from politicians would be huge right now. IBM doesn't want to get in the middle of the current job-related wranglings.
When they laid off 60k in 1993, you can see it didn't really happen all at once then either.
I hear what you are saying but if it means than 330k people still with IBM can keep their jobs (as opposed to the whole thing going under) it could be a good thing.
Hundreds of thousands of other people, like teachers and firefighters, depend on returns from companies like IBM to fund their retirements. If IBM can't profitably retain employees, holding onto them anyways comes at the expense of all the shareholders, not just the ones with cigars and monocles.
It would be a good thing because following the principal of maximizing profits is what is most socially beneficial, in the absence of externalities. And jobs are not an externality.
You have only calculated one side of the equation. You haven't considered how investors would have reinvested that money, and the jobs that this would have created. We can and should develop a theoretical framework that allows us to predict both sides of the equation. Such a framework exists and is called general equilibrium theory, which predicts that profit maximizing companies maximize social utility.
> It would be a good thing because following the principal of maximizing profits is what is most socially beneficial, in the absence of externalities.
"In the absence of externalities" is a pretty enormous qualifications -- very few real world exchanges have no externalities.
> Such a framework exists and is called general equilibrium theory, which predicts that profit maximizing companies maximize social utility.
It predicts that, in a market with rational actors (as defined in the rational choice model -- utility maximizers with perfect information) and no externalities, a Pareto efficient equilibrium will be achieved. But Pareto efficiency means that for anyone to do better, someone would have to do worse. This is not the same as maximizing social utility (while it seems obvious that the point of maximum social utility must be a pareto efficient point, it is not clear that all pareto efficient points maximize social utility.)
And, of course, the conditions in which it makes those predictions (both the perfect information part of the rationality condition, and the no-externalities condition) don't reflect real world decisions very well.
> general equilibrium theory, which predicts that profit maximizing companies maximize social utility
No, it doesn't. It can't, because "social utility" is visible to the market only through the proxy of willingness to pay. If you assume that the marginal utility of money is roughly proportional to 1/wealth (equivalently, that the utility you get from $X in wealth is roughly proportional to log(X)) then what the economy kinda maximizes is total weighted utility, where every person's utility is weighted in proportion to their wealth.
What markets give us (in theory, subject to various conditions) is a Pareto-efficient allocation of resources. And there's a theorem that says that (in theory, subject to various conditions) one can get any Pareto-efficient allocation of resources by doing a bunch of pure money-transfer operations and then letting the market do its thing.
That's nice, but it's only equivalent to saying that the market maximizes social utility if you regard those money-transfers as net-utility-neutral.
So, suppose I have $1M and you have $1K. Under the logarithmic-utility assumption above, an extra $10 for you gains you about as much extra happiness as an extra $10K for me. Consider a transaction in which I find 1000 people like you and pay you each $10 in exchange for what you consider to be $10 worth of inconvenience or pain; I have lost $10K but will be content if I get what I consider to be $10K worth of convenience or pleasure. So we have a possible transaction to which all participants are indifferent: I get a certain amount of happiness; 1000 people each get a roughly equivalent amount of unhappiness; and some money is transferred between us. If money transfers are net-utility-neutral, then by reversing those transfers we get another simpler "utility-neutral" transaction: X units of happiness for me, X units of unhappiness each for 1000 people. So long as they're 1000x poorer than me.
(Is that logarithmic-utility assumption reasonable? Not entirely. I think it's generally held that the marginal utility of wealth decreases faster than that, which would make the factor by which markets weight rich people's utility more important than poor people's utility greater. On the other hand: If we consider the wealth and utility of corporations as well as individuals, we might want to say that a corporation's utility doesn't drop off the way an individual's does. I haven't fully got my head around the right way to think about this so I'll stop at this point.)
Does the framework predict monotonic utility growth? Does profit maximization occur instantaneously? Does it provide any guarantees on the timeframe required to experience maximal social utility?
An error of what magnitude? IBM has not said exactly how many people will be laid off so we do not know what the magnitude of the error will be. Furthermore, they can certainly perform a 110K layoff by splitting it into multiple layoffs of thousands.
Response from IBM (via its Hong Kong office’s blog):
IBM does not comment on rumors or speculation. However, we’ll make an exception when the speculation is stupid. That’s the case here, where an industry gadfly is trying to make noise about how IBM is about to lay off 26 percent of its workforce. That’s over 100,000 people, which is totally ludicrous.
The fact is that IBM already announced, after 3Q earnings report, that the company would take a $600 million charge for restructuring. That’s several thousand people. Not 10,000, or 100,000. Moreover, IBM currently has job postings for more than 10,000 professionals worldwide, with more than half of them in growth areas such as cloud, analytics, security and mobile technologies. IBM’s new cloud leader, Senior Vice President Robert LeBlanc, told Fortune this week that IBM has plans to hire 1,000 cloud professionals.
A little perspective on IBM’s earnings is in order. The company still makes huge profit… $21 billion in operating pre-tax profit last year. And IBM’s “strategic imperatives” represent 27% ( and growing ) of the company’s total revenue… $25 billion in revenues, up 16 percent. We have high growth in a substantial portion of the portfolio, and those areas (CAMSS) have better-than-normal margins in areas that matter most to clients today — that’s the heart of the IBM transformation.
I don't feel that an apology cuts it anymore. We have so many sources of complete garbage. Imagine if this was what caused the significant drop of the IBM stock price (on the 21st)
Could we create a blacklist of sources that just aren't credible that we can just filter them out? e.g. Sky News.
Perhaps negative weighting won't work; perhaps we should add a credibility weighting for respected works (web sites, or authors?)
That, most likely, was the point. A few months ago, Marc Adreessen credited the proliferation of this kind of market manipulation with the demise of the IPO. In his view, a company as well established as IBM can roll with punches like these, but (for reasons he describes in some detail) fledgeling companies can't. So they stay private until they're big enough to fend off the hedgies who make money by planting and fanning rumors like this.
The macro-problem is that companies are past the steep part of their growth curves before they're public, meaning that the benefits of economic growth flow largely to a small number of pre-IPO investors, and not the broad range of people whose 401(k) plans depend on growth in public markets.
Anyway, the entire interview if really good, and crap like this IBM rumor indicates that he's got a point.
That's interesting...Ben Horowitz said he suffered the same types of attacks from hedge funds; they'd spread a false rumor and because he was under some type of regulatory restriction, he couldn't correct the record unless he simultaneously updated all his institutional investors at the same time. He had to let the rumors ride out...and he only had a 90-100 million market cap. Somebody has to reign in these useless zero-sum fucks.
He's long had some sort of issue with IBM, I'm not sure what the source of it is, but regularly he publishes sensational articles about them with little or no basis in reality.
It this is far enough off base to warrant their response, I'd say the only way he'd gain any credibility is to list his sources and also make his investments clear. Is he buying puts on ibm?
What it looks like to me is that he heard a rumor about some cuts, not unusual and it sounds accurate. He elaborated it into a gigantic story of his creation. I expect better from Forbes.
It's not the end of Feb yet so how do you know he isn't right? Also there is still a chance they plan to get rid of a large number but are avoiding the negative PR but staggering it.
I agree that it's unlikely. Even if they would want to get rid of that number of people it would take years. Plus you would think they would try to sell off a part of the business instead of laying off so many people and paying out severance.
I feel lucky like yourself of being in one of the divisions with massive growth.
I don't think people appreciate the size and breadth of IT IBM does, my "tiny" division of security if an independent company would be the 3rd biggest Security vendor in the market.
I wonder if IBM would change their plan based on this leaking. If he really had this totally and completely wrong, then of course that is very irresponsible of him to say.
I don't see how you can stop listening to Cringely altogether though. They did abandon their $20/share EPS plan, which was a pretty epic change. The claims about global services having <50% college grads servicing IBM clients from india is also pretty damning for the company.
I would like to see IBM do well, it makes me angry to see big companies squander their history and abuse their people.
Something like laying off 25% of the company is as drastic a measure as you can ever take other than closing up shop. If they were thinking about it, they were not thinking about it lightly. They certainly wouldn't change their mind just because the news leaked.
????
IBM is highly likely to have to lay off that many given the dryup of various markets.
When HP splits, it's likely they'll do the same.
This is just the way the services market is going.
As for whether they'd change, uh, people like their current CEO definitely change their mind based on the way the wind is blowing, and how much crap will hit the fan.
Have you ever thought about the logistics that go into planning a layoff of 25% of the workforce? In order to get the list of who stays and who goes there is a lot of work involved. Many of the people involved in that work end up on the list to get laid off. It's terrible for morale. Once you've gone down that road, you aren't turning back just because someone found out 2 weeks ahead of time.
I am suspect that IBM would layoff so many at once even if it were their intention to reorganize. The negative press involved with such a huge record breaking layoff would just add insult to injury. It would be much more likely to be 100,000+ over a length of time.
Regardless I am sorry for the terror that this week must be based on this potentially unethical news article.
Note that his wikipedia article says he finally figured out "[A] new fact has now become painfully clear to me: you don't say you have the Ph.D. unless you really have the Ph.D."
It would be naive to think IBM upper management didn't run simulations of letting go 100,000 employees in order to optimize profits or focus operations . Letting go not in the sense of actually firing people but also by selling divisions or splitting up the company. It doesn't mean they will do it (right away), but it's not as ridiculous as you would like it to be. One thing's for sure: more than 11 consecutive quarters revenue losses will have a drastic effect on the workforce of IBM.
My guess is that he turns "possible strategic plan for 110k layoffs over the next five years starting in January 2015" into "110k layoffs in January 2015."
I've known more than a few IBMers over the years associated with IBM Almaden and other places. Many of those on contract/part time/etc, kept their heads down. Many full timers, the same thing.
Cringley may or may not be right on the magnitude of the numbers, but the one thing he is right about is IBM is purely governed by pleasing Wall Street above all else.
The IBM that existed when I was growing up and seeded more than a couple of the early founding staff of the UC Santa Cruz Computer Engineering staff (Patrick Mantey and Glen Langdon -- my advisor to name two), is WAY different than the IBM of today.
IBM is a shadow of itself, there are still interesting groups, but even the research arms are being hit hard by genuflecting to wall street.
I think IBM should stop selling the ultra crap software that is selling right now like Websphere commerce and all the crappy enterprisey stuff. They really need something good to change and if layoffs are for the better, it's probably worth trying. If the plan is to keep this stuff going, it's gonna be bad.
That's not really a solution to anything. Websphere is used and essential to lots of companies. They might hate the software but they'd hate hearing it being end-of-life'd even more.
With a company of IBM's size, there's no need to move people from Webpshere to some other project. You can shake out a few dozen engineers from anywhere without their managers even noticing.
Firing a few thousand bureaucrats would go a longer way toward improving product quality than ending product lines.
Yes the most interesting revelation in Cringely's rumor was that IBM made software.
Let's be honest: An big IT product is about 25 programmers and 25 diverse people (incl marketers, designers, accountants) working for 3-10 years. With this you make a GitHub, a Word, an IE. IBM could be owning the planet today. But no, they're in the business of hotels, golf, and conferences.
I wasn't commenting on IBM's methods - although I think attributing the entirety of their profit to scammery is extremely far-fetched - but on the choice of market. My comment was simply to point out that I don't think there's any shame in targeting boring market segments, and that there's clearly plenty of money to be made.
> Before you say I'm wrong again, no this Excel-in-js isn't isofunctional. It's just what the customer needs.
isofunctionality is implied by saying you could make 'a Word'. I wouldn't dream of disputing that you could make a word processor that offers some limited subset of Word's functionality with a small team - but that's not making a Word-class product, it's making a simple word processor.
I agree we can't reproduce Microsoft Word with isofunctionality with 25 people (obviously). I agree my past comment made it sound like that.
I currently feel negatively from the readers, so I'm testing that again: I've written a comment below with figures and sources to back my claims - See comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8956544
I think you have an incredibly short-sighted view of the difficulties associated with software engineering. In particular, your view of how hard it is to write large pieces of software seems to be way, way off.
Please provide your own estimates on how many people are required to make great software. Not talking about Word in particular.
I've worked in large companies, now I make a living off my own company, so I must know something about software teams, complexity and feature creep. I didn't provide these estimates in the void.
Let's take public figures I can talk about: According to Wikipedia [1], Atlassian has 1148 employees and 20 products. It's 57 employees by product. BUT Atlassian also grew by 44% in 2014, [1] and recruits intensively, so we can estimate that they had 797 employees in 2013. If correct, it means the products they have now have been built by 40ppl on average, including support people, accountants and marketing. Sorry I know some products are bigger than others and I can't talk about those specifics.
And Atlassian does make world-class products which certainly compete with IBM. Please downvote if you prefer IBM ClearQuest to Atlassian JIRA.
I apologize for making an unbounded claim. It was unprecise because I didn't want to be specific about previous workplaces I've worked at. I have felt a shred of hatred from the HN community in the present situation, with the downvotes and negative comments.
Internet Explorer 3 had 100 people and IE5 a thousand [4], which is superior to the figure I was once told, which was 25 people for the development team. I had never been surprised by that low number because complexity grows exponentially and brings problems. I admit downvoters were right that Word didn't take 25 people to build, because of course everyone knows Microsoft has 128k employees [6].
GitHub is 255 employees[3] - Half of which for Enterprise [unbounded claim] and they weren't so many when they got famous. Git itself has had 100 developers over its history [5]; If they were employees, they wouldn't have been simultaneous employees.
So let's change my proposal: Who thinks world-class products are built by rather medium teams (<100 employees) in a few years (about 3 years)? Who has estimates for well-known products?
I work on a product that's pulled in >$2bn in revenue over the last 20 years. All with an average of 25 developers working on it. It's still going strong.
The correction is coming, and companies are starting to lay off people (like EBay doing "restructuring"). Some companies do global office "optimization" - i.e. completely closing offices in some countries/locations. Given that IBM commented on such a "baseless and ridiculous" claim puts a lot of foundation under it. Obviously not all the 100K at once. After all laying off people in Germany is completely different process than in CA. The fact that they point to open listings just shows that a lot of it will be sold under the sauce of "rebalancing" - lets layoff 10K there and hire the "best" 1K of them here. I've seen that an another legendary SV company (some of its former offices are occupied nowadays by a very "Like"-able company) I think IBM has big plan to close some regional offices, downsize/close some projects and to spin off some pieces with resulting IBM headcount expected being 100K less than today.
> The correction is coming, and companies are starting to lay off people.
In the last 3 companies I have worked for over 10 years this seems to happen every 6 to 12 months. Restructuring or right-sizing as HR love to call it is a fairly standard thing these days as companies search for optimal profitability. Every company I have worked for preaches employee loyalty in their mantra but I've never really seen it.
Cringely definitely tends to... exaggerate but I have to say, getting IBM to even ballpark the number of people they're cutting is quite a feat. Remember this is the company that doesn't break down its head count for "competitive reasons" and prefers to stagger cuts so they don't trigger WARN in various jurisdictions.
Not sure of the original source, but a meme I've been seeing around the Internets lately goes something like
"The best way to get an answer to a question on the Internet, is not to ask the question, but to give a wrong answer and wait for people to correct you."
I'm not sure whether this was is what Cringely was up to, but if it was, well played indeed.
Trying to wrap my mind around the number -- 6 employees per 100,000 people worldwide is equal or higher than the number of physicians per 100,000 in Benin, Ethiopia, Niger, Burkina Faso, Central Africa Republic, Chad, Malawi, Mozambique, Papua New Guinea, Rwanda, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo and Zimbabwe.
Very surprising given how easy it is to become a doctor, relative to getting hired by IBM. Combined with how appealing it is to live in those places, I too share your mind-wrapping-around-difficulty.
Project Chrome? It's hard to fathom that a tech company would name their layoff program after a competitor's technology. That just strains credulity. If that part is true, it's a sign of bad things in the company.
First off, it's just a name, not really a big deal nor would it really be a sign of anything. Secondly, if your requirement is "not a competitor's technology" then practically every single word would be excluded because it would have been used, at some point or another, by one of the hundreds of thousands of competitors IBM has and has had.
For context see previous discussion on the 110000 employee layoff that won't happen: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8944637