I have to bring up the same thing on many of these...
But what if you're not white, straight, and Christian? How far can you venture outside of Chattanooga and still feel safe? Can I hold hands with my boyfriend in public and not feel uncomfortable?
I may not have marriage today where I live, but it's coming soon. How long is it until I get the same in the South? http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/05/poll-62-perce... -- For that matter, am I going to have hassle seeing my boyfriend if he's in the hospital because someone doesn't respect my health care power of attorney?
How far do I have to travel to feel like a second class citizen?
I know you like your city, but outside a certain radius, it's not very friendly for a lot of people.
I like how "in The World" means "in the United States of America, in my opinion". As a rock climber, I can point out few problems:
- weather, Tennesse weather is not really that good compared to places like Boulder or California
- deep south, means you can't really be a foodie or god forbid vegetarian
and a lot of other problems, like US visa immigration. How many of those startups are willing to sponsor H1B, even if it's possible to get one?
PS. my choice of rock-climbing destination is Cape Town, South Africa, which is far off-the-way, but is definitely superior to Chattanooga for climbing.
EDIT: people point out that there is decent food in south - so maybe I was just incredibly unlucky or something.
I'm sitting in downtown Chattanooga and I'm walking distance to 3 vegetarian restaurants, a whole foods, and a local grocery story with food from local farms, not to mention the numerous farmers markets and open air markets that are around on the weekends.
I'm so tired of the negative view of the south. Believe it or not we wear shoes, and you can have good food and entertainment here.
As a southern person, I do not think of Chattanooga as the stereotypical southern area. In fact, most of TN is beautiful and avoids the pitfalls of 'true southern' towns such as: retirement cities, college towns, mix of prior two, devastation by constant natural disasters, no innovation, casinos and lottery leading to starvation, rampant drug problems hitting whole cities, etc.
Visited Hattiesburg MS, Jackson MS, Monroe LA, Shreveport LA, and a few others just this weekend. That's true south.
There are 0 whole foods in Mississippi, and why would you build one when there is a 2% chance it will be destroyed by a hurricane within 5 years.
TN is absolutely beautiful. I cannot say much about the people due to lack of experience, but the area is breathtaking. I'll never forget the water down the mountains turning into icicles.
I've learned to visit a city's craigslist prior to visiting the area. You can typically gauge the population by the amount of people using it, items for sale, and types of pets (odd, I know).
I agree. I recently drove through Chattanooga and was pleasantly surprised (wasn't it one of the dirtiest cities in the country a few decades back??). I've added it to the list of places I'd rather be than the tundra that is the upper Midwest. If only it had Kentucky's taxes... at least it doesn't have California's.
Also: Chattanooga has a Trader Joe's, the true metric of civilization.
> - deep south, means you can't really be a foodie or god forbid vegetarian
Really? I just spent two weeks in Kentucky, Tennessee and South Carolina. There was no shortage of decent restaurants in the cities. Rural areas were as devoid of decent options as anywhere else in the US. Maybe my perspective is warped, as I live in the food wasteland that is Montana. I know of about 5 restaurants that are what I'd call good and they tend to be expensive.
My brother is a big foodie and has had a great time exploring food in the south for at about 6 years so far.
I might take issue with saying that Tennessee is the deep south. Regardless, while there are plenty of foodies in the south, vegetarianism is still looked at askance. I was vegetarian for eight years, and my trips to the Alabama/Mississippi every summer were pretty challenging.
"my trips to the Alabama/Mississippi every summer were pretty challenging."
Pass thru Huntsville? 20 years ago, before the "peace dividend" it was quite a hopping place. I hear Austin today is kind of like how Huntsville used to be. Has a heck of a .mil base and an excellent museum too.
a) I'm not sure the actual subjective ranking of rock-climbing destinations is the point of this post.
When you lead your article with the headline ending in "And Come Climb The Best Rocks In The World", you're going to get people commenting on that, linkbait or no.
- The weather is certainly humid but it does provide for year-round climbing, shady spots in the summer and sunny spots in the winter. The rain can be a factor but there is plenty of steep stuff that stays dry. What's nice about Chattanooga in particular is that you can live downtown (for cheap) and be a twenty-minute drive from really, really solid sport/trad climbing and bouldering. Boulder is the only place I can think of that is similar in terms of city-size and access but while the weather is drier in the summer it's much colder/snowier/windier in the winter.
- While Chattanooga and the "Deep South" might not be world-class food destinations we still have more to offer than catfish and possum. I mean squirrel is pretty good...
- US immigration is definitely frustrating, not arguing there.
- While I've never climbed in Cape Town I've been fortunate to climb across the US in addition to Europe. Out of curiosity, what are the top three reasons to climb in Cape Town over Thailand for instance? I'm always looking to travel/climb in new places.
Good to know, I've heard a lot about Rocklands and the video footage I've seen is pretty incredible. Atlanta has a direct flight to South Africa so it's relatively easy for me to get there without wasting 15+ hours connecting through Europe/Brazil.
"I like how "in The World" means "in the United States of America, in my opinion". As a rock climber, I can point out few problems"... I can definitely respect this criticism and to be honest I initially had US, but I think that with the Rock quality, quantity, and distance from the city, it can for sure be argued. As for the weather, we surely see some hot months, but you can climb here year round (not the case in Yosemite/boulder canyon). I also wouldn't consider us "deep south". Being located between Nashville and Atlanta we actually have a pretty hipster, crunchy, outdoors feel. There are 3 Vegetarian eateries walking distance from my office & organic/locally grown foods is a huge movement in Chat. I actually plan to travel to Cape Town in a few months, I'd love some pointers (jared at getfireplug.com). Have you climbed in Chattanooga? I'd happily give you the tour
Came to make similar comments, although mine is more along the lines of "which part of the world has the most foreigners coming for the climbing, even with all the security BS?". Hint: it's not anywhere near the East coast of USA. There may be plenty of other good reasons to move to Chattanooga, but the best climbing in the world isn't one of them. And I can very much appreciate having low rent and plenty of awesome year round climbing within an hour's (sometimes much less) drive. Those are just two reasons why I live where I do.
I've made tons of international climbing connections that come to climb in the south. Im actually meeting 2 people from France at the Red River Gorge this weekend (another world class sport crag- 3.5 hr drive). Atlanta, largest airport in the country = 1.5 hr drive from Chat. San Francisco = 3.5 hrs from yosemite, 6 hrs from bishop, 8 from Joshua Tree.
While Atlanta is in the south, Atlanta proper is much like any other big city. There is an unbelievable amount of great food and every restaurant has vegetarian options (my wife is one), etc.
I will admit that I hate the weather. I'd take 50's-70's any day over the 6 months of 90+ degree weather with 50%+ humidity we have here in Atlanta.
Weather wise, it depends. Yosemite, Bishop, Joshua Tree, etc. are all too hot to climb in during the summer, or at least late summer. Is Chattanooga a different kind of heat? Dry versus humid?
Well, anecdotally - since I've been here I've always thought we have a longer "spring/ fall" climate than a really hot, humid summer. I would assume the elevation of the city and the Cumberland Plateau have some effect.
It definitely gets hot in the mid-summer months, but not nearly as severely as other cities like Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, even DC.
Also, I think calling Chattanooga "deep south" would be a severe misnomer.
Not going to lie, we have our humid days... but no place is perfect. I've climbed bishop, yosemite, Joshua tree, even Indian Creek in not so great temps. Every place has its season but in Chatt you can find shade/dry rock/cooler temps year round
I've stayed in Chattanooga. I'll stick with my $3600 rent, thanks. Tennessee is a very different place from the north, and if you're from New England like me, you might find the culture shock very unpleasant. Even when I lived in Atlanta the culture shock was real, despite there being so many transplants in the city.
I will make no claim as to how someone from the West, Mid-West or South would feel about Chattanooga, however. It is certainly a pretty little city, much like Boulder.
Unabashed racism, homophobia and jingoism. Most people I've gotten to know there start out super friendly and then repugnant beliefs start to emerge as we've become more familiar. I've heard similar stories from other transplants.
eta: I'm not saying this is a universal problem with the south. I'm just saying that I've noticed it there far more often than in other places I've lived and traveled.
in the south, i have had way more people scream homophobic epithets at me on the street. not sure why because i'm heterosexual, and one time a car full of old women screamed a lesbian-focused epithet at myself and my wife while we were walking hand in hand.
i grew up in the south and i have no idea what southern hospitality means. where i lived, the running joke about southern hospitality was that <ethnic group> would hear the sound of you reloading before you opened fire.
if you're nerved out when surrounded by a bunch of well-armed, perpetually drunk, ill mannered, poorly educated and xenophobic people, i would not recommend moving to the south.
I think that there is an element of California (inland) that you would recognize as similar to elements of the South (mega churches, militant anti-abortion sentiment, amazing amounts of poverty).
You might just be shocked at the level of homophobia, however. When I lived in Atlanta I worked with a couple who once confided that they had enough scary experiences that they quickly told everyone they were sisters when traveling outside of Atlanta.
Caveats : not the parent, and Atlanta has reportedly changed significantly in the last 10 years.
However, when I visited (~2001), the intense racial geographic separation was jarring. Some areas were literally exclusively white and black respectively. For perspective, I grew up largely in DC proper which is racially divided in its own right, but not even in the same ballpark as ATL. Public transit was abysmal - the metro line from downtown basically ran in 2 directions (N-S, E-W).
People places and things all change. I recently visited Philly and was taken aback at how much it had changed in the last 7 years (for the better, IMHO). That said, I wouldn't hold my breath at Tennessee becoming a great place to live for those outside its demographic mean, although I can make no qualitative assertions about Chattanooga.
For reference: I lived in Midtown and went to Georgia Tech.
1. Highly visible poverty in the city, and frequent crime.
2. Frequent casual racism, even among students at GaTech.
3. Frequent extremest christian advertising, like preachers outside sporting events and aborted fetuses on billboards
4. Religion being a daily part of life for most people I met
There's a lot more that shocked me over the 5 years of living there and dating southern girls, but I still had fun...I just couldn't adjust. I'd never even seen an overt act of racism except on TV when I was growing up.
Also, keep in mind that when I moved to Atlanta, at 18, I'd seen a lot less of the world than I have now. Living in the South changed my perceptions a lot, and I'm now permanently more aware of my surroundings.
It still boggles my mind that people pay $2k-3k per month for a tiny apartment in NYC or SF. You buy a decent house in Pittsburgh for what 2-3 years of rent in SF will get you. I'm sure Chattanooga is similar to Pittsburgh in terms of what 100k buys.
I love NYC, and SF is startup mecca, but on paper it just makes me question whether it's worth it.
How could it boggle your mind that different people have different values? I'm happy to pay a premium to live in Boston and not Pittsburgh. That's a very easy decision for me to make, on paper and in practice.
Aside from preferring Boston, volume of living space is also unimportant to me. I like renting. I don't take up much space and don't see the value in claiming a bigger footprint than I need. But I couldn't feel confused that others disagree, unless I felt my values were somehow correct or absolute.
From my experience the NYC jobs pay more than the ones in other places, so if you're not working remote it can make sense. Also, I like NYC as a city way more than Pittsburgh.
Yeah, I figure that the salaries are more to offset. And NYC is definitely a much better place than Pittsburgh.
The question is really: if I can own a house in Pittsburgh and visit NYC for 3-4 months a year, and still spend less than renting in NYC, does it make sense at all to live in NYC?
But never mind me, I'll probably end up in New York regardless :)
Bought a bungalow here on very lean startup salary. Mortgage significantly less than avg rent in SoMa/ Mountain View. Small yard for my dogs, great school if/when have kids. Less than 1 mile from a ton of restaurants, bars/taverns, whole foods.
Great life for a mid-20's person and still get to travel often.
Don't want to diss you or anything, but as a European I find bungalows (usually in track row hosing) depressing. Also, less than a mile is not really close.
To me close is something that is within a block, that I can just walk within 5 mins.
I live in NYC now, (east village), and there are about 100s of restaurant's, shops, bars, cafes just within 5 minutes walk. The diversity is ridiculous. (I don't think anywhere in the world you find so many kinds of nationalities and cousines in one place).
No diss taken, Sir. We may be thinking of the same type of house, perhaps not? But no matter.
I love NYC, and have visited 3x this year. It is an amazing place. I'd say that Chattanooga will not be comparable in almost any metric - # of X, density, variety.
I think for many living in American cities other than NYC, SF, downtown Chicago/ Boston/ DC/ ATL/ Seattle/ a few others - being able to live, walk, eat, get groceries is fairly unusual. Especially for a relative low cost with decent-to-high quality of housing.
It still boggles my mind that people pay $500-800 per month for an apartment in Pittsburgh or Chattanooga. You buy a decent house in somewhere else for what 2-3 years of rent in Pitt will get you.
It's unfortunate that so many of us find inexpensive places like Chattanooga inaccessible due to cultural differences.
Why is that being comfortable with living outside the straight, white, and Christian demographic basically means accepting anywhere from 2-4x the cost of living?
A list of places in the world with better rock climbing than Tenessee would take a page or so, as long as you were only listing general areas and not specific crags. Limiting that list to places with sub $2000 rent wouldn't remove any of those items at all.
That said, there's an important idea in there that we probably shouldn't ignore in our rush to dismiss this. The author is absolutely right that there's a lot of world out there with lots of great stuff, most of which is cheaper to live in than the San Francisco Bay Area. If you want to find the best "X" in the world, you're almost guaranteed to find it elsewhere.
As it happens, I'm also living in the place with the Best Rocks In The World (Fontainebleau, France). But I've also lived on Tonsai beach, and in the Basque country, either of which could snag that title if you changed your priorities a little bit. All were great places to work remotely.
We're living in the Future now. If you have a passion for climbing/surfing/outdoor whatever.., and they've got a spot where there's a bunch of it, you absolutely can go set up shop there.
As a resident of Chattanooga for 2.5 years now, I'll add for the non-rock climbers (or as myself, avoiders of altitude) that access to outdoors/ water/ nature is unbelievable in Chattanooga.
Parks, the river front, multiple lakes, are all easy access - which is great for dog lovers like myself.
If any startups/freelancers are interested in Chattanooga, hit us up on twitter @LampPostGroup. If you can climb and code, you're in. Hungry to build an amazing business +10.
As a resident of TN, I can say that rock climbing isn't the only outdoor activity that we have awesome access to. Within an hour and half of Chattanooga are some great whitewater kayaking spots, including the Ocoee, Rock Island, spots on the Cumberland Plateau, and several rivers in the Smoky Mountains.
I climb and code. Always wondered how many of us there are. It goes without saying... perpetually tempted by stuff like this. I'm not in CA -- AZ instead -- but I am a rock climber and whatnot and playing outside is a very important part of my life. It's funny to think about, how programmers are stereotyped as these fat, lazy nerds.... and while there's plenty of that around my office, a ton of us do all kinds of athletic activities. Cool to hear that as part of someone's pitch.
Of course, we could make some of the claims here in PHX: easy living, great community of people running around in the mountains, cool cultural stuff, etc...
one carne asada joint, in another city. there's 3 mexican joints worth going to in the whole area. 'tacqueria' brings no results. looks like there's a local mini-chain 'mojo burrito' which is 'heads and shoulders above qdoba'... well that's a start.
well, if you move there, i hope you like southern food. cause that's pretty much what you're gonna be eating.
it's very difficult for me to not interpret "California doesn't know anything about food" as "People with other points of view don't know anything about the things we like the most here."
"hard to find quality bbq in SF or LA" or "we have great southern food" or even "californians can't handle real spice" would have flown a lot better.
> probably sums up the Chattanooga, TN viewpoint pretty well. "People with other points of view don't know anything about the things we like the most here."
I think your comment pretty much sums up the California viewpoint, "Someone in Chattanooga said something, now I feel like I can classify everyone there".
San Francisco has one of the widest selections of varied, high quality, low & "mid" cost food I've yet to encounter. It easily keeps par with any US and European city.
But what if you're not white, straight, and Christian? How far can you venture outside of Chattanooga and still feel safe? Can I hold hands with my boyfriend in public and not feel uncomfortable?
I may not have marriage today where I live, but it's coming soon. How long is it until I get the same in the South? http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/05/poll-62-perce... -- For that matter, am I going to have hassle seeing my boyfriend if he's in the hospital because someone doesn't respect my health care power of attorney?
How far do I have to travel to feel like a second class citizen?
I know you like your city, but outside a certain radius, it's not very friendly for a lot of people.