Rarely do people get the right takeaway from this effect. Take a normal bottle of red wine and some top tier, swap them around so the ordinary is in the expensive bottle and vice versa. Serve them. People prefer the ordinary wine in the expensive bottle.
Bad takeaway: taste is meaningless.
Good takeaway: qualia depends on many contextual cues beyond the obvious.
Part of the appreciation of Monet is the fact that it was made by Monet. The art pieces 4′33″ or Black Square are early examples of this within the are world. Many pieces will have you saying, my 8 year old could have done this, so why is this piece famous? Critiques and appreciation are often not literal because we cannot properly express these subconscious effects.
Exactly - context is everything in art, in how it's experienced and how it is created.
I think it's important to note that a jpg of Monet is not fully experiencing the painting in any sense. Colours will not be accurately captured, the texture, the framing, the scale - it's sort of like getting a heavily watered down version of the expensive wine, saying it's cheap wine, and asking what people think.
This reminds me the day I went to see in person Starry Night Over The Rhone.
I am not exactly an art person, but I once was explained why that painting is a big deal, the whole impasto thing, etc.
I get there and there's an horde of morons taking selfies next to the painting, and another horde of morons taking photos of the painting. I just wanted to observe a bit the depth of the carved layers of ink and how light reflected on them.
Why bother taking a photo when I can find professional high definition photos of it online?
In the end I was unable to observe anything. It was sort of a let down, and the experience made me hate people a wee bit more than before. Nobody wanted to fucking look at the painting.
I love deeply observing paintings and also love taking a photo while in a museum. It helps me remember the details and review like spaced repetition the things I saw, or spend more time observing nuance later. Are many people ticking boxes? Probably, but the issue is the too many people. Even with people just looking, I feel uncomfortable spending time if there’s a line.
> The act of taking photos of paintings in museums is meaningless.
No. I found some paintings I liked in a museum and took photos of them with a serious-at-the-time camera and uploaded them to wikimedia and found the endeavour worthwhile. Not all the paintings are super-famous and been scanned at infinite resolution!
This is why John Cage's 4'33" mentioned above is genius. If you listen to the composition with sincerity and seriousness, you get the full, unadulterated (non-silent) experience as opposed to an interpretation.
I feel really sorry for people that find context is key for art.
For them often context is more important than the actual art. Lie about the context and their view of art changes completely. I would say these people have objectively bad taste in art. These are the worst kinds of people.
In respect to your point about jpeg, you could have had a jpeg marked as real and one ai, and you would have had all the same comments about how the real jpeg was much better for all kinds of reasons. There is going to be almost zero chance anyone commented how they did due to it being a JPEG, vs them thinking it was ai.
Yes and no. Whilst I agree with your broad point, the point being made here is largely that the people dumping on the "AI" Monet are claiming objectivity about their opinions. And in many cases claiming that it's obvious to anyone with an eye for such things.
My 2 cents is that qualia is definitely a fancy way to say “opinions”. As in:
“My opinion is that this brand is good because others have told me it is. My opinion is that it is expensive because it must in fact be good. The bottle looks old, therefore it is old, which means it must be good because anything good takes time. Everyone has told me how this is amazing, so I need to ensure my refined palette can identify the blah…blah..”
Opinions all the way down, rarely ever based on concrete objectivity. Even for Monet.
In abstract you take the same paintings, stick them in some old dead dudes attic in Nowhere, Montana because he just did them for fun, I’d be surprised if they even ended up at a yard sale.
And that is the point. Value is entirely subjective and built through opinions. If your opinion begins with “I don’t like this,” you don’t tend to then overlook the same characteristics you willingly ignored or even embellished when you believed you are expected to like said thing.
I think far closer is “people want to be part of the in-group”.
Closer yet is “look at me! I am sexy and cool! Have sex with me!”.
“Taste” is social signalling, end to end, so strike me down.
I say this as someone who gets writeups of their work in design magazines fairly often - and I am not a designer - it’s just like dressing a theatre set with the correct objects to signal the thing you want to signal.
Fuck, I fed people cat food at a dinner party when I was 20 and they all said it was delicious pâté.
I suspect this particular painting wouldn't do particularly well anytime you remove the framing of "this is a genuine Monet". It's not one of Monet's best. Monet would almost certainly agree.
Some of the comments reflect this, critiquing the art for what it is, not for who it is from. But at the same time a lot of them clearly go in with the mindset that they don't like it, then try to rationalize that with art critique.
I heard about an experiment on some podcast where they switched organ donation to opt-in from opt-out and before and after the change they interviewed people coming out of the DMV and asked them _why_ they chose to or chose not to be an organ donor.
No one said -- Oh that's just what the default option was.
Everyone had a thought out reasoned answer why they did what they did. But the data showed none of them did that and they in fact just did what the default was and justified their choice afterwards.
I wish I could remember/find the podcast but I haven't been able to. It feels like an old freakonomics but I don't think it is.
The point is that "part" of the appreciation appears here to be all of the appreciation.
Yes, the context of who created a piece of art will have an affect on how you interpret it. But if the question of who/what created it can literally flip your interpretation between "it's genius" and "it's garbage", then that's the only thing you care about. All the actual characteristics of the thing itself are irrelevant. And if literally the only thing that matters about art is who created it, what exactly is the point of art?
Id argue that your dichotomy in of itself requires context.
While the idea that qualia depends on contextual cues might be valuable to understand how culture evolves, it's also indicative that that these cultural phenomena evolve to preserve in group/out group dynamics.
It's not so much, "taste is meaningless" and more, "taste is an arbitrary construction." These kinds of tests are the natural tools of the cynics and satirists of the world.
Critics and purveyors of the Fine Arts and Refined Tastes tend to get a little "up their own asses" about the things that they like.
So, while I agree that the framing of "taste is meaningless" is a bad take, it's valid to point out that there's natural humor here.
This kind of playful mockery is as old as the arts themselves. See: Diogenes.
I once lucked into a private tour of a Monet gallery. I asked the curator, "these paintings just don't look great, why should I be impressed?"
The curator responded that Monet, and impressionism in general, were a reaction to the then-new invention of paint sold in tubes. Previously a painter had to mix pigment powder right when they painted. So they usually couldn't paint outdoors where the wind would blow the powder, and they couldn't capture rapidly-evolving scenes.
Tube paint changed that. Impressionists started painting things in motion, or in shifting lighting like dawn. Their paintings were designed not to look good close up, but to be viewed at a distance, where the "pixelation" (so to speak) resolved into a coherent picture. They skipped on fine detail to capture something as fast as they could, because they could never do that before.
I still don't care for impressionism on an aesthetic level, but I learned something that day about art history and why some people appreciate art that I don't.
I guess this is kind of the recursive version of the purported phenomenon, but, are we sure all those comments aren't just bot generated outrage so people can have big engagement by feeling superiour or whatever?
Yeah I'm hesitant to take a strong opinion on this given how many of the replies could themselves be AI, or humans counter-trolling by baiting him to say "aha! I got you!" to the most over-the-top examples.
That said, it has definitely pulled some real humans out of the woodwork to give their real opinion that "yes, I'm influenced/duped by context and that's a good thing". And that's an accomplishment.
People want importance. To feel, or more accurately, to show that they "Know". That they "Care". They are experts in this or that. They are this, they are that. Whatever it is they are "selling" or to whichever group they want to belong to - they play that part they conceive is theirs.
I love exercises like this - they expose this. Float it right up to the surface. It's poetic.
Ah, this warms my heart. Now if only the people who were at first so willing to participate in this experiment engaged in more self-reflection and less rage...
Last summer I created and printed out a book "Claude Code - An Autobiography" written by Claude Code. Read it on the beach during vacation.
It was a hallucinated mess. And, not the worst book I have ever read. Entertaining.
So, if AI would wrote the perfect book, would you read it? Or do we need to be able to relate to the creator/ author to really appreciate it? Do we need to appreciate something to enjoy it?
Ironically I think AI could potentially write great Sci-Fi. Both the "explore the interplay of society and technology by looking at a theoretical future" kind and the "look at ourselves through the lens of an outsider by moving an equivalent situation to an alien planet" kind. In fact those might benefit from the slightly outside perspective. The "Western, but in space" kind might work less well, for the same reasons a romance novel written by AI wouldn't be something I'd be interested in
All of this assuming a quality level far above the current SotA. You could maybe approach it with current models through very careful iterative prompting, including a thorough planning phase. But on its own the reasoning part of AI is far from good enough right now
A powerful enough LLM trained on great books can output something indistinguishable to most people as a great book. Would you read it? Appreciate it?
Sure I’d read it. At least some of it. If I knew it was AI I don’t think I’d need to finish it because I know it’s not actually an influential work that has a place in literary history.
If I didn’t know it was AI, I’d probably read the whole thing and have funny opinions of it because by definition I probably couldn’t tell the difference.
We are all here on the internet reading comments by bots to pass the time. It’s been that way for a long time and we all still enjoy doing it. The “quality” of what we are reading is going up but what else really changes?
If it was a technical book, I would read it, I don't see why not.
But if supposedly AI wrote a good novel, I wouldn't read it probably, because I am interested in how humans are creative, not the AI. But I wouldn't probably declare the book as junk, either.
Art isn't special, as far as I can tell, it's just a shared cultural perception.
This social experiment is a double edge sword. Both the critics of AI art and AI art enthusiasts are playing a primarily cultural game that can't be satisified by mere inspection of the work itself.
The same way the "white supremacists" aren't identifiable by their skin color.
>Art isn't special, as far as I can tell, it's just a shared cultural perception.
This. The Mona Lisa didn't get famous until it got stolen. Famous paintings are just 3D NFTs for the wealthy elite, doesn't mean they're more beautiful than paintings made by noname authors.
The Mona Lisa was famous before the 20th C because da Vinci carried it around for 20 years saying “this is the greatest painting I have ever done”. That kept it famous for 500 years. It then gained modern new media celebrity by getting nicked (and because the person who stole it did not do it for cash but because he thought it was the greatest painting ever)
So it’s hard for people to judge brilliance themselves, but we can rely on other peoples judgement if enough people follow the crowd or put enough passion in. (Not saying that makes it right - science is not a democracy, but it’s a great heuristic for 8 billion people)
Yeah, but da Vinci's art sucks. It was good for its time, when the entire world population was 400m and literally 90% of those people were farmers and only the very well-to-do had the time and resources to practice a non-practical craft. Now we have a population of 8 billion, everyone has access to incredible art tools for a fraction of a month's minimum wage, there is an absolute wealth of information including books and in-depth video tutorials for everyone to learn from, and countless millions of people have time to try their hand at art. The quality of art produced today absolutely blows away the Mona Lisa, which might as well be garbage. The only reason people pretend to like it and most of the rest of the 'fine art' is an emperor has no clothes schtick, a sort of snobby social game where everyone has to act like it's so special and good because that makes you cultured, even though there are literally millions of art pieces produced today of vastly superior quality but which are not famous.
> The quality of art produced today absolutely blows away the Mona Lisa
I don’t like the Mona Lisa, but this is shortsighted. I agree that more people would tend to generate more instances of good art, it has nothing to do with the tools or the technical aspects. The point of art is beauty and emotion. Better tools do not always help and in fact modern art is often famously opaque and inaccessible.
> The only reason people pretend to like it and most of the rest of the 'fine art' is an emperor has no clothes schtick, a sort of snobby cultural pressure where everyone has to act like it's so special and good because that makes you cultured
It’s all subjective. People liking something you don’t does not make them brainwashed, and it does not make you better.
If you are genuinely interested in this, you could have a read at this https://dynomight.net/bourdieu/ . It’s a bit more subtle than you say.
The only reason people write comments like this is because they've unconsciously normalised the contrarian/rage/emotionally-charged-comment economy.
They clearly don't really mean what they write and to suggest that "everyone" has access to incredible art tools in a world where millions don't even have reliable access to clean water is trite.
Even without hearing it. Just look at how often people throw "AI slop" around to disparage comments they don’t like here, and the list of bullshit "tells" that supposedly identify AI posts. The simple fact that what they see could have been made by a LLM pushes some people to be cynical, worse versions of themselves.
When judging art, like when judging wine, there is very little objectivity: people have some expectations and preconcepts about what is good and what is bad and they emit their judgement mostly based on their preconcepts. In this case they have been "primed" (this is a real psychology concept) that it was AI and they invented a lot of reasons to explain why that was bad AI slop, but that happened just because they where "primed" on AI. If the post was about a lost, wonderful Monet, found for the first time the comments would have been about how typical Monet it was and how beautiful the choice of colors and the water reflects or whatever.
This is also seen when blind-tasting wines when prestigious "grands crus" are classed as bad whereas humble, mostly unknown, wines gets great appreciations. When people say that a wine is "great" or "extraordinary" is mostly because they have been primed to think it must be extraordinary, because of the name, the presentation, the prestige etc.
This problem is always true in the domains like art and philosophy where there is no ground truth and everyone can say very much what they want and it can be never be proved wrong neither right. Actually, in philosophy, all the branches that developed to be grounded on facts and ground truth have been given a different name and separated from philosophy so what remains in philosophy is just the empty words.
People are much more humble when they are asked about an hard-science question or judgement.
I am also having fun about all the hate about AI that people express, this is almost comical. You can almost literally see their little ego that feels menaced by the AI and they react based on fear and anger. Of course this doesn't mean there aren't real problems about AI use but the way people react irrationally is just fun to observe.
But this is why we have “experts”. It’s like the guy playing a Stradivarius on the NYC subway. Most people can’t distinguish ok from brilliant, in a subject they don’t understand. Most humans cannot distinguish slop code from decent code but I assume most HNers can. However I can’t tell you why one electrical wiring job is better than another unless it looks untidy.
Once you get passed a minimum level of decent we have to rely on experts and the communal agreement of experts to decide. Sometimes that easy (is the electrical wiring on fire) sometimes it’s much harder. (Insert controversial wiring discussion here)
I have a feeling like the lay person wouldn’t have made a comment, it’s only the people that think they are an expert that wouldn’t have confidently said why this painting is worse.
Also experts in an art competition have the award to an ai art piece. It was only because they didn’t know it was ai. So no, even experts are susceptible to these issues.
We don’t need to rely on experts to experience art - I think that is a fundamental part of art- within the limits similar to free speech, anything is art. (But don’t block rush hour traffic with your interpretive dance troupe)
Is a painting by AI art? Sure
Is a painting by Monet better than one painted by me? Most people would say yes.
Can some people explain why? Yes. They are not “experts” in the same way the Oxford Professor of nuclear physics is an expert but it is on the same scale.
Or possibly I am just hallucinating the argument because you prompted me to…
Experts can help frame and understand an art piece. They can provide information regarding the craft, how the piece fits with other work from that time, what were the cultural influences, how the life of the artist influenced the work, etc. but you never had to rely on experts to experience or identify what proper art is. However at the end of the day art is a social concept, it’s something we negotiate between us, humans, and people are attracted to what they believe is considered good and important by others
Science is just the parts that evidence does not disprove.
Expertise is understanding how the various explanations we have with science fits together, framing it as it were, and using that understanding to make sensible directional choices. Of course those predictions may later be proven wrong (light is a wave, waves need mediums, ether must exist) but they are more likely than guessing
Science is interesting, because it is at the same time the method and processes, and I think also a vision of what search for truth should be? An expert in that case is (always?) a scientist. When considering art, experts aren't always artists, they can be pure researchers (for some odd reasons I was at a point familiar with people from the art history academic world in my hometown, they weren't artists at all but had a lot of context to provide when discussing an art piece). But maybe it is just different types of expertise.
In any case I do think there is value in the link you're making
Consider the domestic power panel and wiring that is perfectly acceptable, but would 'splode outright if you moved it to an industrial setting and put it under an enterprise load.
1. AI can now be indistinguishable from reality in many cases.
2. Many people hate AI art, not just when it looks bad, but also conceptually.
3. Perception is very easily influenced by many factors.
So given those three facts, this outcome is obvious (and yes, it's cherry-picked, but I'm referring to the big picture), and I'm not sure why I don't see this a lot more often as a form of trolling or dishonest "evidence" that disliking AI art is a bad thing - maybe I'm too pessimistic.
Personally, I always found it interesting that people called it hallucinations.
I have two kids. My youngest is a person who everyone has met. Yes, I am trying to work on this shit with him but people would say he is one of those people who is confidently incorrect.
My youngest will just bullshit through any topic and a lot of the time he thinks he is correct.
I personally think just stating shit as fact when you have no idea is a common issue with NNs.
Drives me crazy because both my kids have heard me say, “I don’t know, we will have to go look it up” more than I have an answer. Because I don’t do it. But fuck if my youngest won’t just make shit up instead of saying he doesn’t know.
LLMs are asked a question so they are gonna give you an answer just like many humans whether they have a clue about what they are talking about or not
“One person even took the time to write out an 850-word breakdown of the AI work’s shortcomings.”
But they didn’t. The “breakdown” they link to is clearly and glaringly AI-authored.
“ Fair warning before I dig in: this image is actually a very competent rendition. It's doing more right than most AI Monet pastiches. But you asked what makes it inferior to a real Monet, so here's the honest breakdown. What's missing — the physical object”
Plus the whole piece is just “someone did something and now here are a bunch of tweets”.
Yeah the 850 worded one is certainly AI, but I don't think it disproves the whole article. It's not an official study either, but things in between are allowed to be written about too.
That only tells us that pro-AI people lie to elicit the desired responses on Twitter. Since lying is their default mode, this is not surprising.
If you tell the neighborhood that the new guy who moves in is a criminal, virtually all people will believe it as well and not use their own judgement.
Of course on Twitter there won't be any art critics, perhaps the responses are all AI bots.
Bad takeaway: taste is meaningless.
Good takeaway: qualia depends on many contextual cues beyond the obvious.
Part of the appreciation of Monet is the fact that it was made by Monet. The art pieces 4′33″ or Black Square are early examples of this within the are world. Many pieces will have you saying, my 8 year old could have done this, so why is this piece famous? Critiques and appreciation are often not literal because we cannot properly express these subconscious effects.