This might be true if everyone everywhere had good clean wall power. But since they don't, light bulbs, even LED bulbs, continue to be be a consumable object. The early claims of 50,000 hours never happened. They're down to claiming 10,000 hours and even this is only if you have perfect power. LED bulbs, at least in my apartment, actually last a shorter amount of time than halogen bulbs.
At least halogens and incandescents were just a bit of glass and some wire. LED bulbs all have a circuit board with many components. If they're taking the place of incandescent and still being a consumable item it might be worse for the environment in the long run. At least incandescents using lots of power puts all the CO2 production in centralized locations that can be mitigated. LEDs environmental footprint is much more distributed.
I'm not against LEDs light bulbs. I replaced almost all of mine with LEDs (though I have a stockpile of halogens for some uses). But they're certainly not going to change the world. Light bulbs remain consumable items.
> For example, Philips made LED bulbs sold in Dubai [0] that last many times longer than the ones in the US.
I have an early U.S. Philips bulb that has been burning continuously since December, 2010. It cost about forty bucks, as I recall.
It's in a dark entryway where it's a real pain in the butt to change the bulb, so I was happy to pay that if it meant not getting out the ladder several times a year.
You're right -- the ones made now don't last nearly as long.
On the other hand, they don't cost forty bucks, either.
I imagine the cost would be about double in terms of manufacturing. So if an LED bulb costs $5, the "long-life" one would only cost $10. However, we know things are rarely priced logically so it would probably cost much more.
It's not the wall power, it's the heat from the LEDs as far as I know, plus the fact consumer power conversion electronics just aren't as reliable in general as other things.
Maybe one of these HN startup people will make the first modular light fixture with separate "ballast", LED, and "Smart Element", if desired. There's not really any technical barriers to making 10 or 20 year fixtures (I suspect a large number of cheap LED desk lights today will be around in a few decades if not tossed while perfectly good).
From experience, led lights with a separate driver (like those spots for ceilings) are very long lasting, the thing that breaks and needs to be replaced is usually just the driver, the actual leds almost never fail.
That (separate led and driver, or hoewever make the driver replaceable) should be the norm even for common bulbs, surely there would stil be some issues with the heat, but we would save lots of money (besides reducing the amount of electronic waste).
LEDs do get dimmer over time, so they should still be replaceable if possible.
A lot of fixtures are big enough to hide a recessed but still accessible box with a USB charger.
USB powered lights would solve a lot of this, they are more durable by far than led bulbs it seems, and the bulb itself would only need to request a specific current via PPS.
No new standards created, all parts reusable in other things, nothing intimidating for a consumer that would require professional service, if it breaks you probably already have a spare, if you want to get more compact than USB C wall outlets already exist.
USB isn't just 5V, PPS actually lets you request a specific voltage and current, so you wouldn't need driver electronics at all in the actual light, as long as all you want is just regular on/off control, so the light part can be just a bare LED and a communication chip.
A socket adapter might be the best for getting it out there though, you'd need more new electronics but no new construction work. But with a new electrical interface you could cover RGBW too.
I wonder if it would be possible to make the heat sink a separate part too without needing paste or degrading performance, since heatsinks don't wear out
It's planned obsolescence... there are parts in the drivers that if specified at a higher quality would last a lot longer. Cost of the additional quality would be a few cents.
Don't blame the power quality. The power is fine. Is your PC/laptop power supply burning out regularly? Your monitors or TV? Anything else in your home? No.
If something fails early because of "poor quality" power, that just means it wasn't engineered properly. Modern switch-mode power supplies can work with an astounding range of input voltage.
Normally you'd be right saying this to any random person on the internet. But my power really is bad in this apartment. I literally have a room where all the outlets read 80v peak to peak due to, I assume, a loose neutral. The halogens handle it fine but it kills anything with a circuit board eventually.
Most people in highly developed countries don't have this problem so I'm an exception there. But most people in the world don't live in highly developed areas.
LEDs get hot when thwy light up. The LED srivers sit above the LED. The number of thermal cycles that LED driver will endure is finite.
The solution can be to install a dedicated 12/24 V low voltage DC grid and drive it with constant current drivers. I have one in my workshop and it Runs my LEDs for the past 12 years without a single fault.
I really can not confirm this, or my power is perfect...
I moved in 5 years ago, most rooms where fitted with LEDs back then 2 had old lamps that got replaced later on, it's not a big flat.. so 15 bulbs first stage
The ones without LEDs? Replaced 4 bulbs in 2 years before replacing everything with LEDs.. (5 bulbs)
Not a single led one replaced so far, and some of them are burning > 6 hours a day.
Have you tried plain simple warm-white led-filament stuff for retrofitting lightbulb sockets, or some whizzbang dimmable multicolor toys with remote control?
What? This isn't true. LEDs function using DC current, and are either on or off. "Dimmable" LEDs have chips in the bulbs that use pulse-width modulation (PWM) to turn the diodes on/off at a different rate to create the dimming effect.
All incandescent bulbs are dimmable (on AC power) with no additional hardware other than the dimmer, which adjusts the input voltage to the bulb. Try to do this with a non-dimmable LED and you'll damage the bulb.
This isn't exactly true; no one has used a rheostat for dimming in like 50 years since that just wastes power. Most incandescent dimmers implement cycle chopping where they clip the beginning or end of the AC cycle (the type used depends on the implementation). Most commonly done using a diac or triac. Most "LED" in wall dimmers work this way too because you can't PWM dim on the other side of the power supply. This is also why in practice most LED bulbs are shit and even the best bulbs will visibly flicker whilst dimming. Yes LEDs are DC but as a compromise you have to implement dimming on the AC side because homes are wired with AC power.
>Yes LEDs are DC but as a compromise you have to implement dimming on the AC side because homes are wired with AC power.
This isn't universally true. Here in Japan, there's commonly-available LED ceiling fixtures (that look something like UFOs) that are dimmable with a remote control. They surely use PWM dimming, but it's done in the LED driver circuit; the fixture is getting the same 100VAC at all times. They also commonly have bluer and yellower LEDs, so you can adjust the light spectrum with your remote control.
Yes but we are talking about bulbs (with Edison base) here not all-in-one fixtures. Yes, the same could be said about ceiling fans with built in remote receiver. The problem with these of course is you need the remote, and if you lose it you're out of luck. Some manufacturers make a little dock for the remote that would go in place of the light switch but I happen to think those are silly.
>Yes but we are talking about bulbs (with Edison base) here not all-in-one fixtures.
Sure, but there's little difference between the two practically. Both of them are a light-emitting device, which plugs into a simple, standard socket on the ceiling. The ones I refer to are bigger, since they're meant to light up a whole room, but otherwise not really different, except that the standard socket is a lot better and easier to use (you just turn the fixture a quarter-turn to plug it in).
Advantages include lack of flicker and more reliable LED boards (hardly any components except for the LEDs). Drivers still fail, but it's nice to have them be a replaceable part.
Does it damage the bulb? I thought it just pulsed at a visible rate because it can't turn on consistently. Does rapidly turning off/on diodes reduce the life of a bulb?
I've never done it with lightbulb level LEDs, but with circut type leds, I've gotten them dimmer by simply using an oversized resistor.
Modern incandescent dimmers don't change the voltage. They just chop off portions of the AC wave, which produces something like a PWM wave, except the on voltage is not constant.
I wouldn't want to try using this chopped up wave to power anything more complicated than a light bulb, but I don't see how it would damage an LED.
> An LED bulb provides the same amount of light as an incandescent while using 90 percent less electricity
It’s a nice idea, pretty cool to light the entire house for pennies an hour.
> and lasting 25 times longer
I refuse to believe it. It may be possible but in practice even “quality” LED bulbs have either awful QC, intentionally engineered obsolescence, or both.
About a year ago I replaced every bulb in my house with upper end Phillips LED bulbs, probably 50 or more of them.
Really getting sick and tired of the gaslighting around how awesome LED bulbs supposedly are. Over the last 5 years I've probably chucked more LED bulbs into the bin than I have incandescents. They flicker. They buzz. I've had an entire case of brand new Feit bulbs go bad. They generate high frequency noise making AM radio reception unusable (especially when on dimmers). I even had one melt down into a smelly, gooey, mess releasing wonderful fumes into my home in the process.
Know what I never had to do when I had incandescent bulbs? Use a lookup table to verify the make and model of my light bulb was compatible with my dimmer. Or have it not be compatible at all. Or read that the bulb is "not for use in enclosed fixtures" which is most bedroom lights and ceiling fans.
I've got over 50 Philips Hue Color bulbs running with no failures since 2016 (so, 7 yrs now) along with between 35-50 FEIT Electric LED bulbs (great for affordable >90 CRI) and only a few of the FEITs have failed over the years. Perhaps it's true that the quality of your electrical service matters; the power in Chicago virtually never goes out.
> I've got over 50 Philips Hue Color bulbs running with no failures since 2016
Those are $40 light bulbs. 99.999% of people do not have $2000 to spend on light bulbs, or laugh at the ludicrousness of such a thought, possibly both.
This is not the metric by which you judge everyone else's experiences. It is luxury/entitlement at its finest. Most commodity LED bulbs are garbage.
Huh weird. I’ve been all led since like 2015 and I’ve had one bulb fail. I think I have around a hundred bulbs. All automated with home assistant. A few even on dimmers (though never dimmed).
When CA first required high efficacy lighting in kitchens via Title 24 in 2010, it was a train wreck, there were no good options and it got a bad name. Slowly they were required throughout new construction in tightening requirements every three years. Then technology caught up and the quality, flexibility, color and lumen options have far exceeded incandescent bulbs. Now people are doing things never imagined (as discussed somewhat awkwardly in the article) with LEDs spurred in part by legislation that pushed the technology from behind. Perhaps one of the few times technology didn't create the product and market. Legislation has created the market, and technology responded. Doesn't usually work out that way...
Now however, the new control requirements are ridiculous and add far more cost than will ever be recouped. Most likely since these requirements were planned back when California used 90 percent more electricity for lighting, it seems rather useless especially in the face of our unaffordable housing. Hopefully I am wrong there but it seems we went a bit too far.
Agreed. As someone that off and on designs electronics a standard light bulb + fixture is a bad match for LED lighting because it's not really designed for heat dissipation. And keeping the temp down is really important if you want long life.
You also need regulations that will bitch slap manufactures that underrate components. Seriously if an LED light burns out inside 10 years you should be able to exchange it for two similar ones at the manufacturers expense.
Note sure about your second point there. An LED can be brighter if the diode is driven harder, right? But that can shorten its lifespan. Also, LEDs degrade over time, maybe it's better they just die before they get too dim. There's a tradeoff here between lifespan and user experience, and perhaps between lifespan and energy efficiency.
Yes running the LED's close or over their rated current will notably shorten their life. It's generally true for all components. Lifespan quickly falls as you approach the max rated voltage, current, and temperature. And they compound. Thing to know specs for component lifespans at max rated conditions is often remarkably short, like 1000's of hours.
So when are you going to get rid of the concept of a “bulb”, which is particularly poorly suited to LEDs? I live in Japan and here it’s more common to install circular, flat LED fixtures in the ceiling[0], so they have a nice big metal heatsink. Never seen one fail (I’m sure they but nothing like the complaints I read about LED bulbs)
[0] https://www.nitori-net.jp/ecstatic/image/product/8380185/838...
The other thing you forgot to mention that's really great about these fixtures is that they fit into standardized sockets installed in the ceiling. Every apartment has the same ceiling sockets, so you can just buy one of these UFO-looking lights and install it on your ceiling in 10 seconds.
Another interesting point for American readers is that these light fixtures belong to you. When you move into an apartment, there are no light fixtures inside, just those empty sockets I mentioned. (Or, if you're lucky, they'll have a cheap adapter and a regular edison-socket bulb, so you can see at night until you buy a real light fixture.) Just like the refrigerator, you have to bring your own. So you might as well get a nice one, because when you move, you can bring it with you.
Does anyone else get whiplash when it comes to stories like this?
Like you'll see headlines like Incandescent lightbulbs are officially banned from being Manafactured in America, and a week later when there's backlash to the ban you get headlines saying "no Democrats are not actually banning light bulbs and here's the source of that conspiracy theory"
I saw this happen with the championing then claiming conspiracy on Gas powered stove bans.
I saw this happen with championing then claiming conspiracy theory with banning gas powered cars by 2035
It's either a conspiracy theory that isn't happening, or it is happening and here's why it's a good thing
But the blue light fears some game seem at least worth looking into.
I can’t help but thinking in 50 years people will be replacing phrases like “they used LEAD pipes” and “they sprayed loose asbestos into the attic” with something akin to “they used unfiltered LEDs”
The "cosy warm light makes us sleepy" meme seems to originate in the use of candles for nocturnal lighting prior to the availability of electricity. Their colour temperature wasn't a scientific choice.
All the LED lamps in our home use phosphor-coated LEDs, so they have built-in filters. We have a mixture of colour temperatures, daylight for wakefulness, warm for evenings.
While I understand their popularity and appreciate the far lower energy consumption, a part of me still wants incandescent bulbs back. They had a warm, inviting glow that’s entirely missing from LEDs
As the other commenter said, there are bulbs that mimic the filament of an incandescent bulb. On top of that there are designs that go beyond that. E.g. I have a bulb that has LEDs shine light through sculpted plexiglass, creating a beautiful pattern of warm light inside the bulb. This goes beyond what an incandescent bulb can do.
I don't think incandescent was ever banned. They just have to meet a certain efficiency, and they are working on photon recycling incandescent builds that actually beat LEDs I think.
It's even an EU directive gone in effect more than a decade ago. Kinda weird to read about the LED revolution, when here it's already so commonplace.
LED is pretty cool btw. So many cool designs and they do last much longer, contrary to many naysayers in this discussion. Only thing I don't like is that dimmers cost an arm and a leg, although recently I discovered that some bulbs have build-in dimmers, which switch to a different brightness when you quickly flick the bulb off and on.
Is it only me or is it the same for others that it's harder to read from paper (book or magazine or newspaper) under LED comparing to incandescent or halogen?
Does this mean we have to go back to candles and lamps to get the same ambiance? Will YouTube ban videos for DIY homemade lightbulbs? So many questions.
At least halogens and incandescents were just a bit of glass and some wire. LED bulbs all have a circuit board with many components. If they're taking the place of incandescent and still being a consumable item it might be worse for the environment in the long run. At least incandescents using lots of power puts all the CO2 production in centralized locations that can be mitigated. LEDs environmental footprint is much more distributed.
I'm not against LEDs light bulbs. I replaced almost all of mine with LEDs (though I have a stockpile of halogens for some uses). But they're certainly not going to change the world. Light bulbs remain consumable items.