Having volunteered with Gaza Sky Geeks (GSG) and been on the ground all I can say is that this is a big positive in the region and for the people living in Gaza.
You would not believe how welcoming and hard working Palestinians are. There is a generalization because of the conflict but at the end of the day these are people like you and me trying to achieve their goals in a positive way.
There is a political situation around it and it cannot be ignored from the moment you arrive but I strongly believe that Mercy Corps and GSG and initiatives like the coding academy help a population that lives in harsh conditions without access of what we give for granted in the US.
Here are some of the things that blew me away:
- About 50% of the founders in the GSG were women.
- There are a lot of very young and talented engineers.
- Walking through Gaza as a western looking guy I feared people would not be super happy, it was quite the opposite, endless invitations to have coffee, eat watermelon, say hello and welcome.
- Hardware startups solving issues that could be applied to underdeveloped countries, one of my favorites was a USB charger that you power by slipping into your shoe and walking.
There is no reason to not celebrate and join the people backing these initiatives, they have a direct impact on good people and even if you have concerns about the politics in the region, I think these programs help alleviate the tension and let people focus on living their lives and not be frustrated with the laundry list of day to day hurdles they encounter.
I volunteered there as well (with jbermudez5), and have never been so deeply impressed by a group of people as I was by Gaza Sky Geeks. I've spent my professional career conducting tech research in developing countries in SE Asia and the Middle East, and have never seen such challenging circumstances for developing a company as I did in Gaza - and yet everyone there continues to aspire to greatness.
The opportunities for economic growth in the region are incredibly limited (40%+ unemployment; 40% below the poverty line; 80% dependent on some kind of foreign aid; ~50% dependent on UN food aid alone; extreme barriers to importing or exporting physical goods), and yet they enjoy relatively high levels of infrastructure and education (97% literacy; 20% population with a college degree - higher than in the West Bank; female/male near-equality w/r/t education levels; decent internet). All of this combines to make tech investments especially appealing.
I got the feeling in Gaza - relative to many other countries lacking these resources that have garnered a great deal of attention from the tech community in recent years, such as India, Brazil, and more - that the development of tech companies (especially tech, due to minimal infrastructure needs) there can make a significant contribution to the regional economy. The group's additional devotion to including women in the accelerator is especially laudable, and has contributed to an incredibly rich workspace.
I'm also a volunteer mentor - at the hackathon I was at, they achieved 83% female participation! Everyone was so fun and welcoming, as it say. They continue to inspire me.
I applied to be a mentor on their website after reading about the accelerator.
You can also donate to their current campaign to help create the coding academy, which I've also done, after seeing it in person I can personally say it's fantastic and students there told me how much it's changing their lives, making them more confident and hopeful about opportunities for their future.
I mentored as well (not with jbermudez) and agree with the above. Also, given the high level of internet infrastructure, high levels of education, and tech savvy, building a startup industry there is one of the best ways to provide future economic opportunity and sense of global participation.
As a network engineer I am immensely curious what the internet in Gaza looks like at OSI layers 1-3: what are the upstream routes in and out, who are the commercial ISPs, what IP space do they have, what are their BGP adjacencies, etc?
Not that this answers your question but it might shed some light: when I went last year, I ran tracert to google.com. The only interesting thing I remember is everything went through the West Bank.
Also not an answer to the question, but Israel laid cable there prior to exiting, and so the infrastructure didn't emerge in isolation. You should ask one of the Gaza geeks to send you a tracert!
I have second hand experience from friends working there. Lots of good cooperation is happening between Israelis and Palestinians. If only our governments didn't suck :)
The Palestinian workers in Mellanox are well liked and respected from what I saw and the company enjoys having them.
Here’s a list of the supporters matching donations: Skoll Foundation, Salesforce’s Marc Benioff, Techstars’ Brad Feld, Y Combinator’s Paul Graham, author Eric Ries, 500 Startups’ Dave McClure, Aramex cofounder Fadi Ghandour, Crescent Enterprises CEO Badr Jafar, Leap Ventures’ Hala Fadel, Tech.eu cofounder Jon Bradford, Kapor Capital partner Freada Kapor Klein and Mitch Kapor, National Beverage Company — Coca-Cola Palestine Chairman and CEO Zahi Khouri, Jabbar chairman Samih Toukan, Google principal scientist Blaise Aguera y Arcas, Uber’s Amsterdam head of engineering Mustafa Sezgin, 500 Startups’ Khailee Ng, Techstars COO Jenny Lawton, and Techstars cofounder David Cohen.
Having read many of the posts in this thread, I feel compelled to contribute.
The complexity of the politics of the region are beyond my grasp. I am not a political scientist, nor have I spent much time in the region. However, as an entrepreneur who has volunteered with Gaza Sky Geeks and who has traveled to Gaza to mentor at their co-working space, I feel compelled to say that (1) the organization is unquestionably using its resources effectively to foster startups there and (2) the entrepreneurs who are part of the accelerator and the wider community who attends their events are some of the most intelligent, hardest working, and good-hearted people I have ever encountered. That sounds hyperbolic, but it's true.
Most importantly, the entrepreneurs and aspiring entrepreneurs are young and have had no part in the decades of political and military conflicts that have created the regrettable tension in the region. They have been implicated in the large mess solely by virtue of where they happened to have been born. Regardless on which side of the issue you fall, it is undeniable that the problems have been created by members of the older generations. It seems reasonable to place the bet that, if a more peaceful future is possible, it will happen by creating productive pathways for the rising generation.
In the most challenging political context on the planet, Gaza Sky Geeks does an excellent job of rendering its work apolitical. I have seen this first hand. The organization is there to help Gazans create for themselves new opportunities and more hopeful futures. And, again, the Gazans who participate in their programs are of the best character and are only seeking to put their energy to create value for consumers, regardless of race or creed, via their startups.
I am not nor have I ever been an employee of Gaza Sky Geeks and have nothing to gain by writing any of this. I have no dog in this fight. But for whatever the words of an internet commenter are worth, I would urge skeptics to consider giving the organization the benefit of the doubt. I cannot say enough positive things about this organization's mission and their effective execution of it.
As a mentor at the very first Startup Weekend Gaza, I was very impressed both at the energy that young Gazans put into their ideas and their optimism that they can build a better, more peaceful world with technology. I mentored one young female entrepreneur who built an Uber-like platform for Gaza using SMS. We spent all of our time discussing the possibilities for market expansion to places where she wouldn't compete directly with Uber, and none of it discussing politics. She was very driven to take her idea to the next level and to travel abroad despite the concerns of her more conservative family.
While many of the entrepreneurs I spoke to were hesitant to voice their political opinions because of the climate in which they live, it was clear that they simply want peace and a chance to be creative with their ideas and lives just like young people everywhere. They did not create the political situation they are in but very much want to change it. They do not engage with the rhetoric of the victim or the aggressor -- which are two sides of one coin-- but simply were focused on the possibilities of expanding their horizons and making something that could advance humanity bit by bit.
I was also impressed by the number of women present, as others have mentioned, as it exceeded the percentages I had seen throughout the rest of the Arab World. That alone is a significant achievement. These women were very motivated to create a better life. And I felt nothing but gratitude and a desire for upward movement and transcendence of conflict from everyone we worked with.
I hope those reading this thread will consider focusing on the future and supporting this initiative to support a positive future in Gaza, with hope for peace.
I volunteered for them back in May of 2016 and wrote about it here on HN. Can't say enough good things about the experience and the people.
Please help their cause. I can personally vouch that the money will go to good people who are hungry to learn and eager to make a difference. I ran two workshops when I went and we had great turnout in each session. People were asking great questions and wanted to stay after to continue learning.
I think the best way to see what's going on there is to watch the videos. Have you all seen the ones about Gaza's startup founders and developers? Here are a few:
Meanwhile, comedian Adel al-Mashwakhi was arrested hours after posting a video criticising Hamas, the Associated Press news agency reports.
"There is no work, no crossings, no food, no water to drink and also there is no electricity," he said in the one-minute video, which has been watched more than 250,000 times.
"Enough Hamas. Enough, enough, enough. We want electricity, we want electricity, we want electricity."
Hamas has not commented.
I've been to Israel many times including during the time of the first Gaza conflict (Cast Lead).
There were elections in 2006 and Hamas was elected over Fatah. Hamas does not recognize Israel and is declared a terrorist state by the US, EU as well as Israel.
There were supposed to be elections in 2010 but Hamas will not allow them.
Hamas has spent large sums of money shooting missiles into Israel and using concrete meant for building homes and schools for and hiring labor for building tunnels into Israel. So serious was the missile problem that Israel created the Iron Dome missile system (see youtube or CBS 60 minutes) to protect its population. That technology is now being co-produced with a US arms manufacturer for sale to other countries. The Israelis have also had to develop tunnel locating technology.
While Israel has a program of encouraging venture capital and startups, it is truly a pity that the Palestinians did not elect Fatah over Hamas.
Normal people in Gaza have little choice with current fascist "government" which eliminates opposition in a literal way. So "elected" is a strong word for it.
In 2006 there was a supervised election where Hamas was legitimately elected over Fatah. The Palestinians gave a mandate of a terrorist organization to lead them.
Do you trust a "supervised election" in a fascist regime? I don't really. But let's say you are right, and majority actually supports it. It means quite something morbid about such society.
The supervised elections were by US, UN or similar groups, not by Palestinian government.
The Palestinians were given the chance to self-govern Gaza when Israel pulled out in 2005 and show the world community that they are capable of self-government. Instead Hamas was elected and Hamas shot many thousands of missiles into Israel.
> The supervised elections were by US, UN or similar groups, not by Palestinian government.
How exactly does such supervision help? I.e. let's say someone votes (under supervision) today against, and then, killed tomorrow for being in opposition. You get the idea. Supervision has zero value when fascists control everything.
Estimating by Egypt situation, around half of the population supports fascist groups, and half is against. Hamas is a projection of Egyptian fascists, so the picture can be similar.
> There were elections in 2006 and Hamas was elected over Fatah.
If the people of the land don't elect the party we prefer (by cross-checking with our terrorist list) we have no choice but to support their seige, occupation and Apartheid.
The US, Israeli, and Polish governments don't represent significant chunks of their population (in the US, 50% of the population didn't vote for Trump). A government being elected does NOT equal a reason to ostracize all the people living there.
In Gaza people who protest against Hamas get killed. During the 2014 conflict, 70 people in Gaza were hung for being collaborators with Israel, with no trial, proof, etc.
Gazans who are not in favor of their government are between a rock and a hard place: ostracized by the international community for a government they didn't choose, and suffering due to the local politics that they don't approve of. Wouldn't you at least want to support the people whose perspectives you align with?
The Palestinians elected a terrorist organization that shot missiles into Israel killing civilians that also refuses to recognize Israel.
Egypt has closed off their border and flooded illegal tunnels to Gaza as well.
I was a few miles away from the World Trade Center in Upper West Side Manhattan on 9/11. I don't feel kindly toward people that elect terrorist organizations to be their government. Sorry if that bothers you.
See also the UN OCHA report that records the 2,220 victims (67% of them civilians) of Israel's summer 2014 massacre in Gaza. 71 Israelis were killed during the same period (9% of them civilians).
So is the IDF a terrorist organization in your personal opinion?
> I was a few miles away from the World Trade Center in Upper West Side Manhattan on 9/11. I don't feel kindly toward people that elect terrorist organizations to be their government. Sorry if that bothers you.
Classic - equating Hamas with Al Qaeda and hence justifying prejudice against millions of Palestenians, victims of Apartheid, seige and civilian massacres by IDF in one smooth sentence.
So Khalid Sheikh Mohammed killing civilians is a justification for IDF killing the same number or more civilians.
Once again, is the IDF a terrorist organization in your personal opinion?
There is no reason to whitewash Hamas. They are point blank fascists. If you claim they are "elected", then you claim that majority there supports fascist regime.
David, the founders and team members that are impacted by GSG are very young, a new generation that have not been part in the decades of conflict.
As another volunteer mentioned in the thread, GSG is helping a younger generation look at the future with a different outlook, that is a big reason I love the program so much, it has a real impact on Gaza and a new generation of people.
Weird how some supporter of the palestinian cause here almost regret that some people in Gaza choose to find a way to live "normaly" and create themselves some kind of future, rather than go and try to kill other people.
And here am i, naively thinking that everything that helps people turn away from violence was a step toward peace...
Not in the slightest. This kind of activity (economic activity) is probably the best way possible to deescalate the conflict.
Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it.
If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent). And it's not for wiretapping since easy encryption makes that infeasible in bulk, plus the people you would want to tap are not the ordinary everyday Internet users.
As additional evidence, increasing economic activity in the West Bank has been the backbone of Israel's attempt to keep things calm.
The more countries depend on each other for trade the less conflict there is - this is a pattern worldwide.
>[...] they just want them to stop trying to attack, so if anything this program is for Israel, not against it.
I hate to bring politics in this, but any sort of aid given to the Gaza people can be construed by others as being political. In fact, people arguing for the Two-State Solution or the end of the expansion of settlements on the West Bank make the argument that such a development would be the best for Israel, and not against it. Since others (ie., the current right-wing gov't of Israel and its supporters) would interpret that as being against Israel, I can't imagine the same people would see economic aid to Gaza as being beneficial to them.
I would suspect one reason is because fewer attacks from Gaza would mean less global sympathy for the cause which that group of right-wing Israelis support (a larger, rather than smaller, state of Israel).
The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) makes me think otherwise.
> they just want them to stop trying to attack
And the best way to do that is to carpet bomb the city every few years and deny it aid after doing so. I'm certain that the many children who lost their entire families will love Israel forever.
> If you need evidence for that, then note that even during the worst conflicts Israel kept full communication (Cell and Internet) active in Gaza, which is opposite of what is normally done (cutting communication of the opponent).
Gaza has chosen a confrontational attitude with their neighbors Egypt and Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they proceeded to promptly demolish the greenhouses that Israel left (and I believed donors actually purchased for them). Next was lynching their fellow Palestinians who happened to support Fatah rather than Hamas. Tunneling under the borders. Rocket attacks ...
For sure there are two sides to the story and many Palestinians who think differently but Hamas in Gaza does not wish to lead a peaceful life side by side with its neighbors and that has consequences.
And the solution is to indiscriminately bomb Gaza and then prevent it from rebuilding once the bombing is over? What did the children ever do to deserve watching their parents or friends or teachers die before their very eyes?
Do you even realize how difficult it would be for a child to live life normally after their school is destroyed? How do you think such actions will affect young children? If you were one of the children who witnessed the horrors during aerial bombardment, would you ever forget?
I don't have a solution. There's plenty of trauma on both sides. I don't want to start dredging up all the horrible acts of violence experienced by Israelis. This sort of thinking is not productive. It's more useful to think given where we are right now what can be done...
Part of the issue with rebuilding is that the raw materials get confiscated to support the war effort.
The bombing is at least partly related to the reduction of other options. Israel used to have the option of driving tanks in to get at some particular problem but now Gaza is so heavily mined and full of anti-tank weapons that this can't be done. It also has a significant tunnel network which makes infantry less of an option. So if someone fires a rocket at you from Gaza you have fewer options. This is just a pure strategic calculation, not really political. Part of that calculation is also the moral side, the impact on the population and the public opinion side of bombing, hence the "knock on roof" protocols and various pre-warning to allow people to evict buildings that are targets to a bomb. But surely a lot of innocent people still do get hurt, this tends to happen in war...
At any rate, this is very much not black and white. I think these days in Israel there is a lot less interest in peace mostly because getting burned with previous attempts has left deep scars in the general population. Anything that can be done to try and normalize things is welcome...
The solution is for Hamas to give up its dream of the liquidation of Israel and its replacement with an Islamist regime in which Jews are second-class citizens, in accord with the Islamist interpretation of Koranic verses which call for the subjugation of Jews by means such as the jizyah tax and so on.
The headline of that NBC story is: "Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip. ".
Which is not the same as "some greenhouses were looted". My image and recollection is more like everything got looted. I mean if only very little were looted it wouldn't be a "blow to efforts"?
I'm sure those greenhouses could have been used for export or for local consumption if the Palestinians plotted a different course after Israel withdrew. There wouldn't be a blockage on Gaza either. The whole point wrt/ to Gaza is that once Israel left their next actions were looting of greenhouses (all or some, doesn't matter) followed by an endless stream of attacks against Israel (and the excuses don't really matter either, "they started" isn't a good enough reason for shelling Sderot e.g. unless you're a 3 year old).
Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel.
Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all.
There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews.
If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian not hate Jews, what makes you think there is any chance for a Palestinian not to?
If you want to change this, first see if you have any success in Egypt.
> During the 2007 trial the lawyers representing the foundation said that the Justice Department fabricated quotes and modified transcripts.[17] Critics faulted much of the evidence given during the trial. For example, over defense objection, the government called two anonymous witnesses: an Israeli Security Agency employee who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Avi" and an Israeli Defense Forces officer who was known to the jurors and the defense as "Major Lior." Even the defense lawyers were not permitted to know the names of these witnesses.[18] The government did not allege that HLF paid directly for suicide bombings, but instead that the foundation supported terrorism by sending more than $12 million to charitable groups, known as zakat committees, which build hospitals and feed the poor. The prosecution said the committees were controlled by Hamas, and contributed to terrorism by helping Hamas spread its ideology and recruit supporters.[19] Some of these charitable committees were still receiving US funding through the USAID programme as late as 2006. None of the zakat committees was included on the Treasury Department list of designated terrorist organizations. Edward Abington, Jr., former U.S. consul general in Jerusalem, acted as a defence witness and testified that during his daily CIA briefings he had never been informed that Hamas controlled the Palestinian charity groups mentioned.
> Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack
This is false and one-sided. Likud, the ruling party in Israel, has in its platform an explicit denial of the right for a Palestinian state to exist west of the Jordan river.[1] Everything you've heard about Palestinians/Hamas denying Israel the right to exist is actually true about Israel as well towards Palestine. (In fact Hamas has stated they would respect a two-state solution; not the case for Likud.)
There are atrocities back and forth, for example "A month before [the murders of Israeli boys that set off the attack], two Palestinian boys were shot dead in the West Bank city of Ramallah."[2] However the scale of Israel's atrocities in military operations is massively larger, and the conditions they maintain in Gaza through sanctions and violence are unconscionable. One could argue the conditions are calculated to foment discontent and keep the conflict on the military field, because politically the settlements and occupation have no standing, as regularly condemned by the whole world in U.N. resolutions.[3]
This comment fails to distinguish clearly the differing situations and attitudes in re West Bank vs Gaza. Israel (including Likud) is far along a path of disengagement from Gaza
The International Criminal Court still recognizes Israel as the occupying power in Gaza "based on the scope and degree of control that it has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement."[1]
The linked article which is not a court ruling, it's a report from the "Office of the Prosecutor", says:
"While Israel maintains that it is no longer
occupying Gaza, the
prevalent view within
the international community is
that Israel remains an occupying power
under international law,
based on
the scope and degree of control that it has retained over the territory of Gaza
following the 2005 disengagement.
In accordance with
the reasoning
underlying this
perspective, the Office
has proceeded
on the basis that the
situation in Gaza
can be considered within the framework of an international
armed conflict
in view of the continuing
military
occupation by Israel.
The analysis conducted
and the conclusions reached
would
generally
not be
affected
and
still be
applicable,
if
the Office
was
of the view, alternatively,
that
the law applicable in the present context
and
in light of
the Israel-Hamas
conflict is
the law of
non-international
armed conflict.
Given the crimes of
possible relevance to the present situation, which are substantially similar in
the context
of
both international and non-international armed conflicts, it is
not necessary at this stage to reach a conclusive view on the
classification of
the conflict.
Additionally, as
the protection accorded by the rules on
international armed conflicts is broader than those relating to internal
conflicts, it seems appropriate,
for the
limited
purpose of a preliminary
examination,
in cases of doubt,
to
apply those governing international armed
conflicts."
So they're basically just discussing the context for this (whether the situation meets some legal criteria to get to the next stage, by the way it didn't). They say it's not really necessary to reach a conclusive view (i.e. at least the prosecutor has no conclusive view, not to mention the court) because it doesn't affect the outcome of this legal analysis.
The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] It emphasizes the importance of jihad, stating in article 13, "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."[5]"
a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. "Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel... The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[1]
So both parties are rejectionist in principle. However in practice Hamas has indicated they would accept a two state solution. Likud has not.[2]
The Likud is not the "ruling party" in Israel. Israel's government is a coalition of multiple parties. The platform of any individual party does not equate to the official position of the state of Israel. Israel had right wing and left wing governments and the path towards a solution giving Palestinians control over the the west bank and Gaza goes back to Menahem Begin who was a prime minister from the Likud who signed a peace agreement with Egypt that included the path forward to solving the Palestinian conflict and the return of the Sinai peninsula to Egypt.
During the many years of this conflict Israel had right wing and left wing governments with various different approaches. Ehud Barak has offered Yasser Arafat a two state agreement very close to what John Kerry has recently described and was rejected [1]. Earlier while Rabin and Arafat were attempting to make progress towards peace Hamas was busy blowing up buses and malls with suicide bombers which eventually lead to the rise of the right, the assassination of Rabin and the collapse of the process.
EDIT: Also worth mentioning that the withdrawal of Israel from the Gaza strip which included tearing down Israeli settlements and evicting them forcefully, was done by Arik Sharon, prime minister from the Likud.
I don't think there's any factual basis to a comparison between the Likud party and Hamas. I'll agree there are definitely opinions in the Israeli right who feel strongly that the Palestinians should not be given their own state for various reasons. Some practical (see Gaza) and some religious/ideological. However that is not the official position of Israel. No doubt there is various political maneuvering going on but the source of the trouble is the Palestinians refusal, or inability, to negotiate in good faith and compromise something they've had many opportunities to do and their insistence of using violence as means of addressing their grievances.
The majority of the world is not fully democratic[2] (well, it's a mess) and doesn't share our values so decisions made in the UN by the "whole world" aren't exactly a yard stick of humanity. The UN is systematically biased against Israel. Where are the condemnations of US, Russian, Turkish involvements in Syria?
MORE on Israel's official position, one of many instances of Israel's willingness to make progress:
April 2003: A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict[3]
May 2003: Israel accepts the roadmap[4]
You keep saying Hamas has accepted a two state solution but I haven't seen an official link. In fact Israel's insistence that the Palestinians accept its right to exist wouldn't be a problem if the Palestinians indeed accepted a two state solution.
The U.N. votes are nearly unanimous, like 150-2, and include all the democratic states (apart from Israel and the U.S.) It's pretty clear what the democratic world thinks of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
As for the claim that Israel has supported a two-state solution under Barak's leadership:
"the Camp David proposals divided the West Bank into virtually separated cantons, and could not possibly be accepted by any Palestinian leader... After the collapse of these negotiations, Clinton recognised that Arafat’s reservations made sense, as demonstrated by the famous 'parameters', which, though vague, went much further towards a possible settlement... After that, high-level Israeli-Palestinian negotiators proceeded to take the Clinton parameters as 'the basis for further efforts,' and addressed their 'reservations' at meetings in Taba through January. These produced a tentative agreement, meeting some of the Palestinian concerns... Problems remained, but the Taba agreements went much further towards a possible settlement than anything that had preceded. The negotiations were called off by [Israeli Prime Minister] Barak, so their possible outcome is unknown."[1]
So the initial offer (separated cantons) was a bad faith offer designed to be rejected, and then Israel dropped the negotiations when it got fairer.
Clinton blamed Arafat [1] and Arafat didn't even speak for Hamas. Could you quote some direct sources rather than someone with a strong political agenda like Chomsky. Let's look at the raw facts, not opinions.
Generally the countries one would consider the "free world" have consistently supported Israel's right to defend itself, including against Palestinian terrorism. [2] is just one example but I can find many more. Please provide a source for your claim that UN decisions against Israel are nearly unanimous. I can't find any specific stats but I highly doubt your claim. While there's a lot of political deal making behind the scenes anti-Israeli decisions generally leverage the majority of the non-democracies of this world.
Hamas is an organization that does summary executions of people suspected of being spies and drags them through the streets tied behind cars (I'll spare you the link). Throwing their fellow Palestinians from Fatah off the roofs (again I'll spare you the link, you can find it yourself). Conducting campaigns of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians. Indiscriminate shelling of civilians and routinely using civilians as human shields. This organization is the source of suffering for both Israelis and Palestinians.
It's not that Israel is beyond reproach or always in the right but there's no comparison. How is "not getting a country with the lines that I want" justification for anything Hamas is doing anyways?
Please spend more time reading information from different sources about the facts and history of the conflict.
EDIT: Donno what pushed my buttons to get into this discussion but the Gaza situation specifically seems to be pretty clear cut. The Palestinians got their own mini-state within a small geographic region and they made their choices to have conflict where they could have not had one. The history of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict is almost irrelevant. The scale and type of Israeli responses to the happenings in Gaza can be criticized but the fact stands that Israel withdrew and let the Palestinians manage their own business and it turned out to be a complete mess which means the likelihood of this being replicated in other Palestinian areas is just about zero. The Palestinians had a chance to prove something and they proved the exact opposite. They can't blame Israel for that.
EDIT2: Doing a little more research into UN resolutions. Ignoring the question of bias vs. other world affairs it seems the pattern is as follows:
- Those Israeli related resolutions are generally proposed by non-free nations
- The US automatically supports Israel. Canada typically supports Israel. Next up in support seems to be Australia in my limited sample.
- The "non-free-world" overwhelmingly supports those resolutions.
- If the resolution is not too strong and just expresses overall regret over violence etc. etc. the EU will typically vote for it.
- If the language is strong or the resolution appears overly biased the EU will generally abstain. I think a lot of those stronger resolutions that still pass would not pass without the non-free world support.
So I don't think the statement that it's always Israel+US vs. the rest of the world stands to scrutiny. Also most resolutions are non-binding. Let's also not fool ourselves that nations vote according to some moral conscience (those that even have that to start with).
Regarding the killed children -- wasn't the people doing a revenge murder of a Palestinian teenager sentenced to long jail sentences when they got caught?
The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..?
It do seem like equivalent sides, as you claim... :-)
> The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..?
Judging from the public reaction in Israel to the manslaughter conviction of Elor Azaria (polling suggests something like 67% want him pardoned), some segment of the Israeli public isn't above sticking up for its murderers.
Yes things are getting worse, the cinfkuct is wearing patience thin, and, as of today, he had not been pardoned. But there will be no streets named after him, he will be dishonourably discharged from the military, and he will not be generally celebrated as a hero. He is viewed as yet another victim, except by some extremists who get a lot of screen time.
Now can we get back to discussing supporting the coding academy in Gaza?
You are not contradicting my point. He is still going to jail.
The sympathy for due process of terrorists will wear thin in most democracies. Afaik, most countries with continuous terror problems throw out the law book.
This is a quite logical result, since the point of terror is to get a fear and horror reaction from the civilian population to influence them. Scared voters make politicians hysterical, so everything is done to stop the situation. (Democracies seems to be even worse here, since voters are more important than non democracies.)
Afaik, this goes for USA, Germany, Israel, Britain, Spain, etc. (I saw claims from some English guy that they did it different regarding IRA, then some other GB guy contradicted and listed some English laws. Let's call that example uncertain.)
> The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed in the raid. The flotilla, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), was carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Because you can't do a favor to a population you've imprisoned against its will? Plus, the fact that you control the communication channel for said population in the first place makes cutting it off a weak move.
As an Israeli, I find it extremely frustrating that I can't help. I joined their "supporters" group and wanted to Mentor but it didn't really work out.
I totally get why they weren't really interested - but it's frustrating.
Most Israelis think this is a great opportunity and support these sort of initiatives. They've worked well with Jordan in the past.
On the contrary, such programs can shift focus from daily hardships and provide some hope for the future, which usually has a pacifying effect. Less extremism in Gaza is better for Israel.
Good job, tech will makes us free. Besides, I'm pretty sure that if geeks were in charge of both Israel and Palestine, they would just solve their differences on a PvP server, end of story :)
If anything, tech is quickly turning this world into a pile of poo with no space for real humans. Teaching people how to write code won't do shit to help them; this is all about making sure there's desperately cheap labor around to fix bugs tomorrow.
You would not believe how welcoming and hard working Palestinians are. There is a generalization because of the conflict but at the end of the day these are people like you and me trying to achieve their goals in a positive way.
There is a political situation around it and it cannot be ignored from the moment you arrive but I strongly believe that Mercy Corps and GSG and initiatives like the coding academy help a population that lives in harsh conditions without access of what we give for granted in the US.
Here are some of the things that blew me away: - About 50% of the founders in the GSG were women. - There are a lot of very young and talented engineers. - Walking through Gaza as a western looking guy I feared people would not be super happy, it was quite the opposite, endless invitations to have coffee, eat watermelon, say hello and welcome. - Hardware startups solving issues that could be applied to underdeveloped countries, one of my favorites was a USB charger that you power by slipping into your shoe and walking.
There is no reason to not celebrate and join the people backing these initiatives, they have a direct impact on good people and even if you have concerns about the politics in the region, I think these programs help alleviate the tension and let people focus on living their lives and not be frustrated with the laundry list of day to day hurdles they encounter.